Are you a feminist? Are you sure? What does it mean to you? Janelle and Andrea dissect their own definitions, share their experience with feminine and masculine energy and invite listeners to honor the qualities of both. Includes a nod to Planned Parenthood, HDFS, Kate Chopin, Animal House, David Deida, Alison Armstrong & Om Rupani. You’ll hear:
-Janelle’s journey form militant to post-modern feminism
-Andrea’s frustration with feminism & why adding “thoughtful” in front is helpful
-How you can embrace the feminine without bashing the masculine
-Why cultural conditioning is such a PITA
-Why the Venus Flytrap is a fascinating feminine predator
TRANSCRIPT:
Andrea: Hi friend! How you doing?
Janelle: I'm doing well Andrea. How are you doing?
Andrea: Oh, I'm doing great Janelle.
Janelle: You have your voice you have one of you have many voices and You have the voice. it say to you? That you're in it? But yet we're not gonna talk about what you're in today
Andrea: So tired of talking about that anyway.
Janelle: What are we gonna talk about instead then?
Andrea: We're going to talk about feminine versus feminist. Two more big F words. They just keep coming. And, yeah, are we feminists today? Or are we in our feminine? Or are we both?
Janelle: Great. That's a great probably summary I don't get gets to the point at the end right at the beginning But I'm excited to talk about this. This came up on our last when you were like, we have more to talk about here. Let's not just have a one liner. So now we're making this an entire podcast. Yes. So how about we just dive right in? It's a pretty big topic, so we've got some
Andrea: It is. Why don't you start with, how feminism began for you.
Janelle: Yes. When we get into these, really big topics. Especially ones that are bodies of research, they're also ideologies.
Andrea: You haven't written a 72 page paper on this, Janelle?
Janelle: I have not, nor have I written a best selling book. and so I'm always like, oh, who am I to speak about this? But then I had a friend remind me that, as she was listening to one of our other podcasts, she's like, it's so great, it feels like , you're not the expert, but yet you know more than me, and that you're giving me the references to the experts I need to know, but you're just then a real person talking about it, and it feels really accessible. So I'm looking at this topic of feminine versus feminist, from that vein of, , I'm not an expert on any of this, but this is my lived experience, and so, I may say things that are polarizing, I may say things that are like, what the fuck? but this is me, and here we are doing a podcast about Our
Andrea: I love it. That's a , great explanation. And hopefully we're translating it from our experience so someone else can learn from it.
Janelle: Right. Yeah.
Andrea: And it is, it's tricky because I definitely feel that come up. I'm like, I don't have a degree in women's studies, which I did not even, nope, didn't know that.
Janelle: I'm a minor. Human Development and Family Studies was my
Andrea: I have never known what your major is. It is astounding to me, the basic facts that we do not know about each other. What, wait, one more time. What was your major?
Janelle: Human Development and
Andrea: Which means HDFS. That's a social work thing, Is that what you're going to do when you first went to college? Were you like, I'm going to be a social worker. I'm going to work with. Advocate for women,
Janelle: I went to Cornell. My parents my dad and mom were both social workers. My dad was a social worker by certificate. My mom was a court advocate for foster care children.
Andrea: Okay, that is fascinating. So, all that said, you do have a minor in Women's Studies. Yes. But we're mainly talking from our shared experience. Look at that. We found such a fun opening conversation.
Janelle: We did,
Andrea: Without even naming it.
Janelle: So I identified as a militant feminist, most of my life. very pro choice, very, men and women are equal, women can do anything a man can do, I worked for the feminist majority, out of college, in L. A. I was a Planned Parenthood volunteer, women's rights activist. I've marched on Washington, , in the Women's March after Trump was elected. are your cause. Yes.
Andrea: I've dated men. Right, and had a
Janelle: Yes.
Andrea: What does the word feminist mean to you?
Janelle: That men and women are equal. Hard stop. guess the accept is, is how do you get there.
Andrea: Okay. So let's not go there yet. Okay. Because I think it's really important , to just nail down. You just said men and women are equal, hard stop. That's what feminism means to you. Do you notice it's very hard for us to give one sentence answers. I dare you. I dare myself.
Janelle: I literally have my hands in front of my lips right now brave hearts like keeping myself
Andrea: You'll get your chance. you'll get your chance, smart guy. Anyway, that's a quote from Animal House. Okay, thanks to my parents for showing me that at an early age. When did this world break apart for you? what changed? At some point, something changed. Because you are now thinking about not using the word feminist anymore, which was a little bit alarming when I first heard it, but I couldn't wait to hear the rest. So what happened?
Janelle: I do believe that men and women are equal but that the feminist philosophy that I was subscribing to was that Women had to be in their masculine qualities. so when my Ex husband and I were still dating, probably two years or so into our relationship.
He told me that he did not identify as a feminist. That he believed men and women are, were different and that women and men being equal should not be the goal. that he felt women embodied unique qualities, i. e. feminine qualities that should be valued.
Andrea: This brings up something else for me, which I didn't think about. I had a time where my husband has said in the past, Yes, I get it. Pluton men should be equal except guess what? Men are never going to have babies. And so, let's not pretend that men and women are actually on equal footing in the workplace.
Women will always have babies. They will always need to take that time off for the babies. And I, of course, I'm paraphrasing him now. I'm not quoting him directly, but, this was his point. And of course, he's also saying it in a much softer, less aggressive tone than I am. Just FYI.
It's like, why are we pretending that there's really ever some kind of equality? and I saw his point, but I was also like, Well, no, I still want the rate of pay to be the same. And he's like, Okay, but how can it be? And I think he's inadvertently pointing out, females and males are different. in response to what I'm hearing is that from where I can stand now is , that is true that women have babies and as a culture, we value the fact that women have babies, we value the fact that having Moms and dads, but moms stay at home after they've had a child for a period of time that we value as a culture that everyone, including the men benefit from having a mom stay home with their child, then the pay should still be equal.
Janelle: They're just doing different roles. The compensation should be there the women should get paid for the time that they're at home raising the children for the men as well
Andrea: So it's very pie in the sky, but yes. I mean, sure, that would be awesome and ideal.
Janelle: so I think for me that pie in the sky ideal is this recognition that as the feminist that I was didn't value the feminine attributes of women I really felt Women can do the same things as men and thus in the patriarchal society that we are in I was really undervaluing myself. I absorbed the undervaluing of the feminine qualities that make women special
Andrea: Yeah. And I see. And you were thinking, okay, well, females have to become more male ish.
Janelle: Right. I don't even know that I was thinking we were becoming more male. I just knew that we could run a company just like a man could run a company and the reason why women weren't running companies is because of the oppression and the denial and misogyny and all of that,
Andrea: Take us back, right? Your fiance, said he wasn't a feminist, and you were like, what the
Janelle: Yeah, I had a full on meltdown. I felt my face flush. I got hot and livid and confused and I immediately went to, Oh my God. I don't know if I can date him. How have I gotten two years in and I didn't know this about him? And can I date someone who's not a feminist?
Andrea: Yes, fascinating. And that's just like, the rigidity which, with which we, hold these ideals up. And we're like, no one can take that off of my pedestal.
Janelle: He was really elevating women Valuing me in ways that I wasn't valuing myself so that was really the first conversation that I had that acknowledged The unique and valuable qualities of the feminine because in a way and he was this is where he was like like pushing me He's like have you ever thought about this?
Have you just believe everything you said like women and our men are equal but let's really dissect this really go into it what does that mean and In this way, in this particular topic, I can be like, Oh yeah, I just believed, kind of hook, line, and sinker, what culture had taught me in
Andrea: I, want to go back to our childhoods for a minute, because this is where I feel like I did see both, The feminine and the masculine, I saw the value of the feminine in my mother and then she was also a really powerful woman. So I saw the masculine in her too. So I feel like I saw that complementary energies working together.
And are you saying you didn't see that? Or that it just didn't resonate for you with the feminist word, maybe?
Janelle: Don't know how much I , intellectually thought about feminine and masculine. Probably very little, yeah, but what, so this is what I know. My mom was a teacher before she got pregnant, and then she stopped working when I was born and my brother was born, and she went back to work when I was 12.
And I felt that my mom's life was made smaller by not working. Even though I 100 percent felt her love, and I know that she loved being a mom, and I felt her devotion, and I know that I am probably a much better person in some ways because she didn't go back to work. But I also remember being like, I'm not going to stay at home if I have kids.
I'm not going to be a teacher because those were underpowered, undervalued and underpaid, which I still think is true I think that they're the most important role in our children's lives other than being a parent and I can now see that but I was like Oh, I'm not gonna do that because I want to feel valued and I'm not gonna learn to cook You purposely did not learn to cook? . So interesting.
I only learned to value cooking when I was 19 and my best friend Jenny at the time We went camping and she cooked me a gourmet meal on a camp stove. And I was like, Oh, this is a really great skill to have.
Andrea: Let's talk about that for a minute. just from the very beginning did not want to cook, did not want to learn to cook.
But I think it actually served me well as knowing that I wasn't gonna spend my life in the kitchen. I I never had been attracted to it. And so the kitchen was never my domain. But I do want to call out in this spirit of you saying I'm not going to cook.
Janelle: I think I absorbed the cultural undervaluing of the feminine aspects of being a woman and I associated being in the kitchen with being a woman, and the aspects of being a woman that I didn't want to
Andrea: Okay, so to circle back, I'm hearing that you thought women needed to change for feminism to succeed, and if they wanted to be treated fairly, and valued, they had to embrace more of their masculine. Is that correct?
Janelle: Yes, although I don't think I thought of it as changing. I just think I was like, oh wait, we can do this. that we're also capable of being driven for success. And we can do math. And we can run companies. , we have these skills. , we're capable of all of this. So I saw these parts as equal. Not a changing. but what it is, is that I think is that I was only valuing the similarities. That women had with men and I didn't put value and focuses on the differences that we had.
Andrea: I think that's clear. And that's helpful.
Janelle: So what about you? I would say I did not probably know much about the word feminism, or feminist, until my 20s. I read the Feminine Mystique. But in general, I feel like even in my early 20s I was a little frustrated with feminism because I felt like there was all this rhetoric about feminists not having children, not getting married, not succumbing to this housewifery thing, not needing a man, and I was like, what the hell, , can't I be strong?
Andrea: And share my life with a guy, and have a family, and be a mom together, can't they fit together? I feel like it didn't work for me, I felt like it was making me choose. Either I'd have to be single and be strong and be independent, or go and have a family and be a mom, and maybe I didn't see a lot of role models early on that were doing both, right?
Because my mom also stayed home, she was, She was very strong and very hardworking, but she stayed home, she helped my dad run the family business. I also didn't have examples of people who didn't have kids. Everyone around me had children. Like, that wasn't an option, or it wasn't seen as a valid option think one of the turning points was reading, Kate Chopin's Awakening where she said, and I spoke about this in the motherhood episode, where she said, I would die for my children, but I wouldn't give up my life for my children, right? So I was like, oh, okay. I can work with that, Yes, I'd jump in front of a train for them, but I'm not gonna give up my whole life just to devote to them.
I want to have my own life, too. like, great. They can coexist. And then I discovered Planned Parenthood. Because I started going there and then I became part of the pro choice movement and I marched on Washington and I wore a bulletproof vest at the clinic, 19th and Vine and I remember my mom saying to me like, Isn't there a safer way that you could give back to the community?
But I just kept going, right? And I taught against abstinence only, education in Colorado Springs, and phone banked, and anyway, did a lot of raising money for the Young Advocates Council for Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, and I felt so empowered and strong in my 20s doing that.
It was just like discovering who I was, And I felt like at the time, feminism meant Freedom. , it was attached to this F word that we talk about a lot, like freedom from the government, freedom from men, to make our own choices.
Janelle: Okay. So hold on. Yeah. So you thought of feminism as freedom from men and freedom from the government to make your own
Andrea: And of course as well, like, men and women should be equal. That was part of the rhetoric, but there was something about their freedom , that resonated with me.
Janelle: I think the word that I would say is like independent. I can do everything myself kind of energy. I'm capable. I can go at it alone.
Andrea: think I was definitely missing that. I was like, yeah, yeah, I want to be strong and independent, but I'd prefer to have someone with me. Think there was that dual tug of the dance there and a few years ago. I bought this feminist canvas bag forget where I got it, but and I still carry it around whatever when I get my daughter's Sporting events or whatever like it's not it's a bag.
I'm often using and I remember wanting to write in black sharpie At some point, the word thoughtful in front of it. Yes, I'm a thoughtful feminist. Because I started hearing a lot of man hating feminism. It felt too extreme, like the pendulum was swinging too far the other way, as if Men could only be either misogynists or idiots and there was no room for them in the middle and this didn't sit well with me.
Janelle: Was this the Me Too movement or before
Andrea: I would say it was before that. And so this was frustrating as well. so yeah, that brings me to today. Okay, so as we embrace the masculine and the feminine, where does that leave? The word feminist. So let's get back to these feminine masculine qualities you were talking about.
Janelle: Do believe that all of us have both masculine and feminine qualities within us and that the integration of those attributes within ourselves is the divine union. there's a polarity that exists between the feminine and the masculine, both within us and in relation to others. what I mean by polarity is that attraction, like a law of attraction, is like the opposites of tract, And someone who is leading with her masculine is going to be attracted to someone and they're feminine like that.
That is a law of attraction We can see it in our various Relationships. Now, of course some men have more feminine qualities than masculine qualities and some women naturally have stronger masculine qualities so you'd be clear. I'm not talking about gender Or sexual orientation, like non binary and non heterosexual people also have both of these qualities within them.
But only in the past couple of years, since 2020, has my understanding and appreciation for the feminine started to change. And only in the past few months have I uttered that phrase. That I really, identify and I've been devoted to the feminine and less so as a feminist. I still believe men and women are equal, but I now value The differences between us in a completely different way than feminism taught me.
Andrea: So what I'm hearing is that you started on one side and you're almost clinging to the other. Is there a space in the middle where you're like, okay, I value the similarities. I value the differences. Here's the neutral space.
Janelle: I feel like I am in the neutral space. in the sense that I deeply honor the masculine and I deeply honor the feminine. what I'm saying is that like I spent most of my life only honoring the masculine. only valuing the masculine while probably Sometimes actually devaluing men.
Andrea: For all their masculine energy, that's where the clusterfuck happened for a while when you say masculine and feminine, I think this is where I feel my anxiety come up because I think it gets tricky. Mm hmm. Here. hmm. Especially to
Janelle: You want me to do some definitions? so we're talking about qualities or attributes, the masculine qualities or attributes get expressed when you're working towards a goal, making progress, getting things done, setting containers, pushing forward. It's like a penetrative energy.
Andrea: Good word.
Janelle: the feminine attributes get expressed when we're moving in the flow of life. Like listening and kind of it can look like chaos, like embracing creative energy, dance, play, attuning to our intuition.
Andrea: I Think there is such a natural defensive stance that comes up when people hear that. And they're like, that's not true. my feminine is very aggressive and da da da I get what you're saying and to me that feels like a traditional definition
Janelle: I think I've had to go on a journey of unpacking what is traditional and is everything traditional bad. And again, we grew up in a culture in the era that we did where feminine attributes were looked down upon,
What I have had to do to get to where I'm at today is to go inside and listen to what is it that feels true for me.
Some of those things that feel true are feminine attributes that have been around for millennia. And so you could say are traditional. They exist. I get the qualities that I just listed in that definition are unchanging. I guess the only thing that changes whether we're valuing them or not, but what they are doesn't change.
Andrea: Yeah, I mean, I hear you and I think what I realized as you were talking was that it just goes back to culture. And our culture values progress and getting shit done so much that the masculine just is always going to be above the feminine.
Janelle: not always going to be, but that is what it has been.
Andrea: And even in my own life, I mean, I fight against this constantly. Right? I'm like. Okay, can I just relax, be playful, find the joy, there's the chaos. No, I prefer some structure, where's my list, I want to get shit done, I have to be productive. That's just what happens. It's the constant dance of these two voices.
Janelle: And as you and I know, we are a very complimentary when we've talked about this in terms of the skills that we are bringing to this podcast, I actually think we, you and I both. We both hold and honor our masculine qualities and we both hold our feminine qualities. And I think from instant to instant, right?
There's times when you're like, we need more structure. And I'm like, ah, and I'm like, but okay, you're right. so you're bringing me back. And then there's other times where I'm like, we don't need as much as you think. It's going to be fine. Like the divine, we're so wholly supported by the divine. And so the dance goes within ourselves and with who we're relating to.
Here we are the same gender and then it also goes in relation to who like our
Andrea: You want to reference the book, yeah.
Janelle: my absolute best resource on this topic of masculine and feminine relating in a way that embodies and values these characteristics, is Alison Armstrong. She has written The Queen's Code and Keys to the Kingdom, , I'm speaking from my current understanding, , and explaining her work the best that I can, but for anyone curious about this deeper, I, I highly, highly recommend her books. And I'll also say, , I read her book, The Queen's Code, in 2020. I feel like I am only embodying it now it is taking me years to unpack. This whole concept of the feminine and then a realizing that I was devaluing it and devaluing women How that was happening in my system through culture and then how does it live within me? And then oh how to identify is it feels true for me.
And now how do I lead from there? I mean it has been a fucking journey.
Andrea: And now as you're realizing yeah, there's a fear that I felt when I read that Queen's Code, and I read most of it.
There's some fear of reversion back to like, oh, being the wife and the husband's in charge. Mainly because, it's not that I'm not valuing that feminine feeling because I actually do and I crave that masculine energy, but there's some message from society that invokes fear in me around it because I'm afraid I'm going to be just put there and I'm going to be told I can't do anything else I that's where the resistance comes up.
Janelle: Do you feel that in her book? I don't understand what the fear is from reading the book.
Andrea: It's the same fear I had when I listened to that Upani podcast. Omrapani, is like, whoa, like, what is this? 1955? there's just so much cultural. Backsliding is how it feels right away. It's like an instant kind of like, oh my god and I had to turn it off even though I saw some of what he was saying in general Bravehearts what I'm talking about is just this very traditional place for the woman Woman belongs in the home, she's good at making children, she's, good at, being in all of her feminine, which is great, as long as she can be in her masculine too
Janelle: So I agree, and in my opinion, so Omar Pani, who's a polarity coach and one of my teachers, who I deeply respect and value and recognize. A lot of his content is polarizing, and you're stating it perfectly. I don't believe he or Alison Armstrong is saying women should be in the
Andrea: So I believe you. And I think it's just a, habitual paradigm perhaps that lives within me from the culture. That's just like, oh my god, like panic. Right. Like no, they're telling, uh, I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm scared. Like I need to be strong. I need to be a woman. Like. And so if I can calmly take it and say, okay, this doesn't cancel this out.
Both can coexist and live together. It's fine. But that kind of rhetoric reminds me of, of an oppressive rhetoric from the past.
Janelle: So I think, yeah, you're bringing up a point which is cultural conditioning is deep. And for anyone who's going against cultural conditioning, there's going to be a lot of resistance. To it and like I said, like I read Allison Armstrong in 2020 It took me three years before I feel like I'm embodying it I don't think I could have been one of them students even two years ago And so it's also surprising to me to see my own evolution of like, oh, I completely resonate with everything he's saying and most other versions of myself in my lifetime would not have been
Andrea: They would have railed against it. Yeah.
Janelle: And what I see both of the, both of them doing is actually revering women, revering the qualities of the feminine. And how I see both of their work is because they, I know Om says this, I don't know about Allison, they were also raised in a feminist culture as feminists. they've devoted their lives to men and women relating. And they're looking at people are really fucking unhappy in their relationships.
So, if feminism and the way it was structured and the ideology behind it, not about men and women being equal, but how do you achieve that, worked, great. I don't think either one of them would have books and be talking about it. It's the fact that they're like, both men and women are unhappy, they don't know what their roles are, they're going against what their internal body is saying feels true for them.
Miserable divorce rates are sky high. Here's some options to think about. yeah, so the takeaway is that of both of them is that like men and women are equal. But feminine qualities are as important, as beautiful, and as valued, and as exquisite, and as unique as masculine qualities. qualities And both are necessary in order for relationships to really thrive.
Andrea: So let's talk about now how the masculine and the feminine Has played out in your being
Janelle: The first 40 years of my life, I was really learned to be successful in this world. i. e. really learning to be in my masculine. on my own. , being in business, paying taxes, figuring out how to get shit done. And I was really good at it. From 40 to 49, I then went on a spiritual journey.
And part of that was learning to understand what feminine meant. And this was a deep study and learning to value and appreciate these qualities within me. During that time, I actually let go of a lot of my masculine qualities. And I went deep into the feminine into a way where I didn't have really almost any structure.
Andrea: Yeah, it's a lot of surrendering
Janelle: A lot of
Andrea: A lot of letting go
Janelle: Yes. I feel like I went To the edge of my surrender to the point where it's like, , my masculine is not holding me. My human is not holding me. , I'm not functioning successfully. In this world because I've gone now so spiritual and so feminine if you will so that recognition was like oh now get to bring them both back together Whereas I get to bring in my masculine that I know well but I had kind of been pushing aside for the last nine years while I like did this deep dive and Now I actually trust and really honor my feminine.
So I feel now in this present moment That I trust my masculine, I respect my feminine, it's been a key aspect to me coming home to myself, and now I move forward in the world from an integrated place.
Andrea: So I'm hearing that you're depending on yourself for both energies you're embodying both energies Find both energies in yourself. Does that mean you don't seek out a particular balance? In a partner or with friends.
Janelle: No. I would say that how it feels in my system is, back to your point, is like, is freedom. Is that I have come home to myself, I can take care of myself, and I then am choosing from that place. A partner, or people to be interacting with.
I'm seeking a man, and he's masculine. Um, but someone who is aware of these dynamics within himself. Meaning that he also honors his own feminine. Um, just like I honor my masculine. but I am in this present day, I would describe myself as leading with my feminine.
Andrea: And how do you do that?
Janelle: I've got a couple of different tools I've learned along the way. there's this concept of the feminine predator. like Venus fly trap, where you're waiting for a fly to come to you. So like I'm waiting for someone or something to come to me instead of like going out and pursuing it. I have a practice around that.
But this isn't a passive, I'm not like sitting here on my couch with my eyes closed waiting for life to come to me. This is an active waiting, where I'm actually like listening and leaning in. That's one thing that I do.
The other is investing in my radiance. And we've done a whole topic on this, but recognizing that my radiance represents for me the full blossoming of my feminine, and that when I actually take the time to feel good, sleep, food, exercise, clothing, then I am exuding my femininity in a way that, draws people in and makes them feel good.
Andrea: Again, matching that first paradigm, where you're just like, you're not going out and seeking, but you're attracting.
Janelle: Right, like I'm magnetizing. But in order for that magnetism to work, I have to feel really grounded, centered, and like in my radiance.
Andrea: Is surprisingly aligned with business, right? Like, if you build a brand where you feel at home, then you're going to attract the right people, and you don't need to go seek and grasp for them.
Janelle: Agreed. Yeah. the other thing is that I give myself spaciousness. To listen to my intuition, which means a lot of alone time, a lot of contemplation, a lot of discomfort when I don't have an answer yet, versus moving from I should know, I should know and make, make a decision right away. So this one in particular can be hard and scary sometimes while I'm just waiting for clarity to come.
Andrea: And what would you tell someone who's like, I'm listening, I'm listening, I'm waiting. is there a desperation or a panic that stops that from coming? I don't even know if this is a valid question, it's just like, it's what, it's what always comes up for me. Maybe it's, maybe it's patience.
Janelle: Patience is a really big fucking part of this whole journey. patience. Oh my God, that was one of my words. I think. 2021. yeah, patience. Like, 'cause this is like, this is the divine operates at a pace along a space kind time continuum that is not the one that we follow here as humans. so yeah, there's a lot of patience that is required of myself, And I'm like, oh, I don't, I don't always know. and patience against my own mind of my mind wanting productivity and to know now. And like, what's, what's the next step? What's the goal? All, like all of those things having to be like, I don't know, a deep breath.
I don't know yet until I know. And I would say part of my impetus for all of this is that I have learned. painfully through life experience that as a woman in her masculine Meeting a man in his masculine Was really challenging and it made for an unsatisfying dynamic.
Andrea: Laughing because as I have been in my masculine most of my life as well,
Janelle: Leading with your masculine,
Andrea: With my masculine, I guess. Yeah, I haven't phrased it that way. Yeah, okay. I think I can take that in. I've been leading with my masculine and missing my feminine. So trying to drop back into my feminine presents this rub of craving the masculine, but then also having to step back and let someone else be in their masculine instead of me.
Janelle: I mean that's a really Prickly part of this process. Where you're being patient not, , like oh I'm sitting here being patient waiting eating bonbons. You're like Oh, I'm not doing something that feels like I'm comfortable doing, like, you know, like I'm
Andrea: Yeah, right. Absolutely. And I see this a lot just in couples and marriages where, I guess it's with friends. I won't pinpoint. It's just woman's like, okay, come on. I need your help. To the man, to the dad, ? Like do this, do this, do this. But a lot of times women are not willing to step out of their masculine long enough for the men to take over. And I know I have also been guilty of that. I get that. It is, all about just raising constant awareness of where I'm leading from.
Janelle: There's another teacher I wanted to bring up. or author, is David Data. And he has a book called Intimate Communion. And he talks about three different stages of relationship. And a quick summary is that a stage one relationship, the man wants to be honored for his external qualities like how much money he's made, what he's done, the car he drives, kind of thing.
A stage two relationship. Is where the couple is equal and that he wants to be honored. I'm speaking from the man's perspective. David Data is a men's work teacher. where the, man wants to be seen as this feminist. Man, who is in a way, in his feminine while his woman is in her masculine, ?
Like the kind of characterization of the relationships that we see a lot today. And then the stage three is this balancing together, of the man wanting to be seen. For the integration of both , how he has succeeded in the world. how he , is an embodied masculine, successful in all the different ways.
But also has the ability to be compassionate and, integrate his internal. Intuition and feminine pieces. I'm bringing that in because Alison Armstrong Omra Pani and David Data are like three really rich resources for people Who you know bravehearts if anything that we have said today resonates Then those are where I'd guide you
Andrea: Rich content, deep shit. You have really done a lot of work around this. And it's always enlightening. Like I always learn something a little bit new or I'm like, okay, I've heard that 15 times and now it just landed a little bit differently because I've changed and I can hear it in a new voice from a new angle.
This is ultimately challenging so much of our cultural conditioning and , I constantly go back to that as being sometimes the biggest barrier to understanding.
Janelle: Thank you for honoring the work and naming the work that I've done on this and like all of the conditioning that I had to shed, And I can speak to it from a place of like, yeah, my relationship was really painful with my ex husband because like friction, like changing from one side.
And my husband is very, very masculine and I was meeting him in my masculine. So by the time I figured this out, my marriage was already ending. And a year later, now my heart feels open and ready to be calling in a man like.
So there is, and there is a lot of things that I've always wanted but never achieved when I led for my masculine. and there is, honoring and grief that I have learned these skills and now will offer them to someone else and not to my Husband,
Andrea: Oh my god, there's so much here. Okay, Bravehearts, Yeah, I'm like, we'll send you a memo. What do we want to tell them to do?
Janelle: Yeah, just like all the Teachers that I spoke about david dada the book intimate communion the way of the superior man alice and armstrong queen's code and keys to the kingdom omar pani You can find them omarpani. com He's a polarity coach
Andrea: Are you, or how could you be valuing your feminine qualities more? How can you place a higher priority? A higher value? How can you see the feminine in you a little more clearly?
Janelle: and while not diminishing your masculine that is the key this isn't about oh we're elevating the feminine and thus the masculine is decreasing there is a deep deep honoring that i have of the masculine qualities and of men that is a takeaway that i need to say
Andrea: Okay, we have to stop talking now. There's so much to say. Thank you for listening. we love you. We love you for hearing us and pondering and getting curious.
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