Janelle and Andrea talk about embracing their age, how they got here and why they’d never go back, There’s discussion about dressing for the divine, how good it feels to know ourselves and how perimenopause shocked the hell out of us. There’s a nod to Tamsen and Midlife Muse. You’ll hear:
-A new name for crows feet
-Why having friends of wildly different ages makes a big difference
-How your expression matters more than your outfit
-Why we don’t want to be our 30-year old selves
-Common cultural shaming and how to meet it with grace or snark
TRANSCRIPT:
Janelle Orion 0:01
Hi Friend Hi friend
Andrea Enright 0:03
enter the brave hearts listening out there welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea
Janelle Orion 0:08
and I'm Janelle.
Andrea Enright 0:08
Get ready for some real time relationship whoo and wisdom from the frontlines with occasional tantrums and tears about how breaking rules blurring boundaries and tossing tradition can be catalysts for finding your truth.
Janelle Orion 0:20
Let's debunk the fairytales we were told as children and create a new map for life. Yes, Disney can go fuck it. If you're seeking permission to choose your own path, freedom is the new afterward people and want to feel less alone along the way.
Andrea Enright 0:34
We got you. Please note, this is our side of the story. Our partners and metaphors have their own individual experiences, and we do not speak for them.
Janelle Orion 0:49
Hey, Andrea,
Andrea Enright 0:50
Hey. Welcome to permission to be human. brave hearts. We see you we love you.
Janelle Orion 0:58
What societal norms are you breaking this week? Doing your best to be our fears? Yep.
Andrea Enright 1:05
I'm sure you're being brave and courageous. Today, we're gonna talk about aging. Yeah,
Janelle Orion 1:13
because it's actually very on trend.
Actually, I
actually feel that being 50 is very on trend. I'm grateful the time
Andrea Enright 1:22
we're being born into. Yeah, that is very true. And I wanted to start with this thing that happened to you or someone said to you, Oh, you don't look 50.
Janelle Orion 1:37
And I said, this is what 50 looks like. This is what 50 looks like now. So how about that? Yeah. And this is what 48 looks like, almost 49 Mm hmm. Exactly. And we're wanting to talk about this and our experience with aging and our culture and all that. Because my life feels like it's getting bigger, not smaller. I feel more joyful, more radiant, more myself. And I would never turn in one of my wrinkles. If it meant taking away some of my wisdom. There's another podcaster Amanda something she's the midlife muse, and she had a little like snippet on. Her photographer was like, watch the wrinkles, watch the wrinkles. And she was like, the wrinkles are part of my brand. I love my wrinkles. They are who part they're part of me. They're part of my brand. She's the woman who has gray hair that I'm like, Oh my gosh, when I'm ready for gray hair. I'm so excited. I'm not ready yet. I'm owning that. But that's neither but there will be time. Yeah. So but it was just like, No, there's no reason to watch them. They here there. They exist on me. And there's nothing wrong with the fact that I wrinkled.
Andrea Enright 2:53
Yeah, and a while back I renamed my crow's feet to sunrace. Because they're really like my eyes, the sun and they're just rays coming out from my eyes.
Janelle Orion 3:03
Oh my gosh, so much better. So or and I call mine last lines.
Andrea Enright 3:07
Yeah, of course. You know, of course we all have last lines. That's beautiful too. Of course, like
Janelle Orion 3:11
not everyone's laughing. I would much rather be laughing than worried about not laughing. Yeah, like that's the expression of life like you. Absolutely. I
Andrea Enright 3:21
feel like I'm wiser and more beautiful now than I've ever been for sure. Yes. For so many reasons. Inside and out. Yeah,
Janelle Orion 3:28
it's the inside. It's the inside that like directly reflects on the outside. Yeah, really true. Yeah. So one of my favorite stories, which impacted me deeply many years ago, about age. I was sitting at a table in protege, which is a fantastic restaurant that still exists amazingly in Denver. And how long ago? Like I think it's important how Yeah, probably like 20 years ago, okay. So I was like, in my I was early 30s. And I was sitting with some friends, but I was at a corner table. And I could see I had a view of the room. And to my left was a foursome. That was like two couples, two men, two women who were in their, I would say like 50s. And they were wearing like, I remember the women, that the women's hair was highlighted and died. They had very, like short skirts on that were sequins. And there may have been like augmentation of their breasts. The men definitely had spray tans or were like, a different color. And I was just aware that I was like, wow, they're spending a lot of time and effort on their appearance. It was just like clear, right? I was just like, oh, how they looked mattered. But then I just across it when I looked the other direction. Then there was a table of three women who I would say were 67 90s, maybe even 80s, I don't have a reference, probably that was 30, I would say probably actually like 60s and 70s. Yeah. And they had gray hair. They were like, I don't even remember what they were wearing, there was nothing stand out about their clothing. But what I remember was the vibrancy of their laughter, their smiles and the twinkle in their eyes. And I remember looking from table to table at this one table of people who were talking, but there was not like a joyfulness of life coming off of them. There was like, I don't know, I don't know how to describe it, you have a better word. But I just remember going from looking from them. And then looking over here and just being like, I want that. I want to feel what they're feeling at that age, where it doesn't matter. The color of their hair, what I felt was connection, joy of liveness. They had more wrinkles, they had, they weren't wearing anything that was particularly stylish that stood out to me. But what stood out that has been imprinted in seared seared on my brain for 20 years was that they loved themselves. And they loved being with each other. And it had to it was like an inner glow that radiated.
Andrea Enright 6:23
Wow. And he goes, Yeah, that is a beautiful story. And what I hear about the other table was there's a stiffness and a we I better keep performing, or else I will be judged. I got to stay in this cage, because people are looking at me and have to make sure I'm doing it all right, according to society's standards, right? It was
Janelle Orion 6:44
the never who's the I didn't have any of these words back then. But I would say they were look, it was that the external was an external beauty, metric judgment. And this, the table within women was all about the internal beauty, and that it was radiating through. And like the inside out, was just like, wow. And I feel extraordinarily grateful. And that it was not a coincidence that that I had that exposure, this comparison, the comparison at that age, part of its impact was me being less afraid of getting older. Right.
Andrea Enright 7:19
Okay. As such a great story. I've already retold it to a couple people. And I remember Lucien saying to me or he was our brand coach for a while. And he really is what inspired us to do this podcast. Yes. And I was worried about what I was going to wear and for the photoshoot and he was like, no, like, your inner expression is the most important thing. That's like not that profound. But like, I was like, oh, yeah, that is true. And I can actually say now that I just don't think about what I'm going to wear that much. Like I used to really think like, oh, what I'm going to wear to that party. What I'm going to wear when I go out in the state. I decide in the moment before I go now. And that is such a shift for me of going from,
oh, how
do I want to look today? What is the right thing to being like? I like all my outfits, like what do I feel like putting on? Yeah, that's so different. But what that means
Janelle Orion 8:17
I get harder, like the aging race? Wasn't that like, you also got to the point that you like all your outfits, which means getting rid of you got rid of a bunch of stuff that you didn't like, or you didn't feel good in? Right? Yeah, that was my journey. Yeah, the other story of clothing was, I was high on mushrooms. I was doing a solo mushroom journey. And I ended up sometimes this happens on solo journeys, you just don't know where you're going to be in your in your house. And he ended up I ended up in my closet. This is one that this closet different closet. And I was like, Oh, I'm gonna go through my entire closet while I'm high on mushrooms. And the question that I asked myself is what is worthy of meeting the divine? That's right, yeah. And then I tried on my entire closet. And I was like, Am I worthy to meet the divine? Yes. No. And I went through the entire thing. And that ended up being a profound exercise. Because at the end of that, like the next day, I was like, oh, everything in my closet. I like, everything feels like me. Yeah. And it also allowed me to get rid of pieces that I actually deeply loved, but no longer represented who I was in that moment. And so it was like, Oh, you were well loved. You're a great piece. Like there's nothing wrong with you. If you're just need a new home now because that you are you represented a version of me that no longer exists. So you don't actually need to be my closet.
Andrea Enright 9:38
You do live somewhere else you pass on the future to someone else. Yes. I love to do yes. Okay. So what I also hear there is that you know who you are. You can't go through a closet and decide what is right for you and unless you know exactly who you are, but I would say that that
Janelle Orion 9:53
knowing was not on my mind. For me and we've talked I talked about coding a lot. It was how do I feel in this? And if I feel like I feel good, I feel sassy. I feel like I look in the mirror and I'm like, yes, then that's really knowing is, right. It's not actually Oh, I am anything. It's how am I feeling in this outfit is the knowing.
Andrea Enright 10:18
Yeah. So I would I would agree with that. But for me it is also about the knowing because for a long time I had so many choices, a massive closet of what of different things, and I would be, in a sense different person every day. And for me, well, that's nothing wrong with that, if that works for you, is performative, it was it was performative. And it was also like not knowing who I was, like, I could be all the I was all these different people. So soon as I was like, Wait, who am I? Am I this person or this person? And now I feel like even if that will change the next year or even next weekend, right now, all of them match who I am right now.
Janelle Orion 10:53
i So I agree with that. I hear what you're saying. And I think the knowing for for me it is the same thing, just like I want is like a nuanced that, is it? Oh, I'm someone who has a wide range of things in my closet, but they are of this moment. Today and tomorrow, I can do very, very different things. But there are this and I don't even know if it's quarterly. Right. Okay. There's there's a there's a recognition that that yeah, the version of me, is a couple of months long, sometimes it can be a year long, you know, but that within that I have for me personally with clothing. There's a wide range.
Andrea Enright 11:30
Yeah. And I still do have that there is a range still. I mean, there are different looks, but there's less choice also hundreds. So really
Janelle Orion 11:38
helpful. So helpful. And we're totally getting off topic. But anyway. Aging. Yeah. Okay, so, but since we're on this topic, if you would just want to say this, like with your with your husband, right? He has like a style, like jeans and a black shirt. Right? And that's all he pretty much worse. But that to me is like so classically him like he's so embodied in who he is and what looks it looks great on him. He feels himself in his understanding. He looks himself in him, right. So it's not actually about having a lot of things. As we just said, it's not like, the closet has to be huge. It's just like, What do I feel good? And if it's a black T shirt and jeans every day, and you feel great in that then awesome. Yes. Right? Yeah, that's very true. Okay, and one more shout out for nine itself. Totally.
Andrea Enright 12:31
And now what do you like to like, put a blue shirt on? And my daughter and I are like, Oh my God, what do you what? Who are you? Like, he's like, I can wear blue. I can wear something different. It's there's something else I just learned in my speaker training. It was a huge aha moment for me was about content and delivery. Right. So when I first started this speaker training and writing a keynote, I'm writing a 60 minute keynote, because I'm fucking crazy. And, and it's been an amazing process. But I'm like, Oh, this speech is everything. Like, the content is everything. I mean, I, I do content marketing for a living like I'm a writer. So I was very focused on the story. And like what I'm saying, and everybody was in the beginning. But what I realized at this last training was that your delivery is so critical to what you were saying it is almost just as important as what you were saying. So if you compare, for example, if I said, My children are named Jake, Ruby, and scarlet, but if I said it this way, my children are Shaykh, Rudy and Scarlett, then you know something about them. And you know, how I feel about them, and you know something about their personality. And so it's a huge difference in the delivery of what you say, Mm hmm. So the delivery is so important, like how you are in the world matters just as much as what you are bringing, and you're wearing and your hair looks and your skin looks. And I just feel like that also has been a theme for me my entire life because I've see some women like to walk around a coffee shop, in their heels kind of observing and being a little bit more aloof.
Janelle Orion 14:20
personality they also being observed, do you think, um, I
Andrea Enright 14:24
think that the taller you are, the more people are like looking up like, Oh, I see you. And that is some people style. And they're like, kind of remaining a mystery remaining a little bit untouchable. And that some people's style. I've met a couple of friends like that. Mine is the exact opposite. Like I want a human connects with everyone. And that's very much part of how I look. Right and how I come off to people, my energy. And so to me, then I'm making it as much about the content as it is about the delivery. So I think it's this is an important point. When anyone is performing in any way, or if you're just being in the world,
Janelle Orion 15:02
okay, so the clothing is content and how we're cars makeup are in
Andrea Enright 15:07
our hat, our shoes, that's the content, the delivery is how you're giving it to the world. Got it?
Janelle Orion 15:16
Got it. Well, and so then what I'm hearing with that tying it into the to aging, regardless of what age you are a year carrying, yeah, the delay if you're delivering the content, like my dad, right? Who's 93? Yeah, we just got a picture of him on a tractor this morning. Who's still driving? Who is like, he's, he's delivering being 93. Amazing. Lee, not only because from a health perspective, but because he's like, yeah, yeah, I'm in that age from my friends are dying. You know, I get just that kind of like, it's it's a stage of attitude. It's an attitude. Like, he's, he's so graceful in acknowledging that his shoulders don't do what they want. That he you know, he's limited. He can't drive as far although he is driving, you know, like, his world is smaller. But he's not resisting that. He's just like, so as a result, he is conveying through his delivery, that aging at to that age isn't nearly as terrible as someone else might make
Andrea Enright 16:18
it. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. So there's the condom versus delivery. Okay,
so do you know,
when did you start feeling your age?
Janelle Orion 16:26
When did I start feeling my age? It feels like there's been moments in time, where my age became a thing, like, I had fertility treatments. When I was 37, and I wasn't in a partnership, there's no partner on the horizon. And I was like, Okay, well, I get ahead of diet, you know, like striving to get married and have a kid or have kids, but I was like, probably going to so let me just be ahead of the game, right, I'm just gonna have my eggs and just get that taken care of. And then I found out that actually at 37, my personal reproductive cycle was actually already at the end, I was already at the end of my reproductive cycle. And so the chances of freezing my eggs, and then fertilizing them, and then in then doing in vitro, and all that was chances of success was like getting like 0.0% percentage. Got it. But I was like, but I'm only 37. Right. And they were like, they're actually kind of pretty old. reproductively. And I was like, what? Okay, no, yeah. So I definitely, that was like a free framing of how old I felt. And how old my body was. Right?
Andrea Enright 17:48
Yeah, got it. That's yeah, that's a good moment. I mean, it's, it's a sobering moment against you like, Oh, I'm not that I'm always gonna match. Right, I think is what I hear you
Janelle Orion 17:57
say, yeah. Our mind in our bodies. And then I will also say I started perimenopause at 41. And I went into this ties into the fertility treatments, right. So Oh, you're at the end of a reproductive cycle. You're going to be menopause early, we just don't know when turns out. The process started at 41. And I was fully in menopause by 45. And I was talking to a friend did and she's 58. She's just starting. And so so crazy, right. So huge range. And so feeling my age is when something's happening to my body. And it's like, my age is a factor in that. Yeah.
Andrea Enright 18:36
So for me, it definitely wasn't. I mean, I sort of perimenopause and I was 42. And I was just completely blindsided. Like I mean, I just had no idea I would be start I just thinking it was something that happened to people over 50. Like, and also it was just never talked about perimenopause, rocking Hello, like, right. I just had the menopause in my mind that my periods and heard a couple things that was just it was too young to even have contemplated it yet. So that really was like shit. That was, it was hard. At first, I was like, Why are those stuff happening to me? And then I think there came a time when I couldn't drink successfully anymore. That definitely it was like, Oh, if I drink, I'm going to feel like so bad tomorrow morning, but it's not worth it. Yeah. And I was like, okay, just stop drinking or more infrequently drinking. And then when you have a child, they really show you how old you are. Because, I mean, it is so interesting how like, we don't operate the remote. We just let her daughter do it. It's not hard. Of course, we could figure it out. But she's just faster at it. And so we let her do it. So then when I start to do it, I don't know how to do it like and you know, she's faster at Instagram and she's faster at picking things up. And just like there are just ways where we do feel a little bit old. Recently, she had met someone new and I got his number and I said oh, are you going to call him She's like, No, she's like, that's for old people. Just kind of kidding, but but not because
you want your spouse.
Yeah, like, oh, yeah, you're just gonna text them, right. And then I think there was a moment, which my friend, my dear friend, Leslie SWID, told me about many, many years ago before it happened to me that her mom told her about just like, there's a moment when you're in a bar, and a new guy walks in the bar, and he scans the bar, and he doesn't stop on you anymore. Hmm. And this, okay, this is just sort of effective. Like, I'm probably one of the older people in the bar. Right. And so yeah, so just like taking that in like, I am not quite as attractive as I used to be in that. That's okay.
Janelle Orion 20:52
Yeah. But that I actually wanted to, like, pause you on that statement, because at the beginning of this podcast, you said, I'm the most beautiful and wise I've ever been.
Andrea Enright 21:00
And I do feel that way. And not Yeah, yes. And
Janelle Orion 21:04
you're not young, because then we're this like, this is like part of what this whole episode is about. I'm hearing you internalize that Oh, youth means I'm not as beautiful as I was. Right? in someone else's eyes. That's true. And I'm just saying, but no, you're I just heard you say you're the most beautiful you've ever been. And so that's the insidiousness of our culture, thinking that youth is everything. Yeah. Well, Italy, actually, I have no doubt that certain men would walk into that bar and be like, Look at that. radiuses.
Andrea Enright 21:32
No, this is true. I think you were. And I think even that example, feels old to me now. Like, that was something that was definitely spinning my narrative for a long time. But now, I mean, yeah, I'm not gonna date a 30 year old anyway. Right. And that's who's walking in the bar. So I think we all Wendy Yeah. This is true. Usually, my threshold is 36, by the way. I mean, I want someone of my age, but there's a lot of young people in those apps. Like, and they are not afraid. I'm an older woman. I have been a little bit surprised, right? They're like, Yep, I'm like, Okay, we're like 11 years apart that like, doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother you. I'm like, I guess not. Nice. So, society's messages. Speaking of which, good segue.
Janelle Orion 22:21
Yes. Of the ageism, there is in our society that because there's less reverence for older people. And I would say with that, there is this concept of this very real in Hollywood, right, like, Oh, your 45 year old, you're not even to show you on TV for a long time. Yeah. I mean, I think in some ways, you could think Judi Dench is the only woman who exists who's in her 80s. Because that and Helen Moran, right? Like, there's like two women who you're like, oh, that actually has only blessed these two women. And yeah, I mean, they're incredible actors. And yet, there's, I'm sure there's more. And so the reason why I will, you know, like we think that we don't want to get old is because ageism is like removed, like older people are removed from anything that we're looking at. From a
Andrea Enright 23:20
positive light. Yeah, absolutely. And that's how it does. You know, Disney tends to portray grandmothers as like, quite old, and sometimes with warts and as witches. And obviously the use is people want to be young. Oh, I want to be turned into the princess. You know, they're reinforcing this message. Beauty, goodness, purity, innocence. That's, you know, that's all that sort of the coveted qualities.
Janelle Orion 23:45
Were just like, the throw in here. And like the wisdom of life, I don't even know what beats it. Right, like, like, society's message. And I'm trying to think, you know, in pop culture is are there examples of where it's just like, oh, no, I fucking earned everything. And I'm so proud of what I've experienced to get here. But it's so hard. We're fighting upstream?
Andrea Enright 24:12
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think there's more now with social media and Instagram, you're seeing different influencers, but there's also all this, like, the touching up of the face. Right? Right. You
Janelle Orion 24:23
don't actually know if anything's real.
Andrea Enright 24:25
Oh, for sure. I'm gonna get this, this flyer in the mail with a real estate woman on it. And you know, it's fine, like know her face, because it always comes to my house. And then I saw her in person, you know, a few times around the neighborhood and like, oh, my gosh, like, don't
Janelle Orion 24:41
do that. Right. Because then you're so different, so different. And it's, it's sort of like I'm on the apps, right? If you don't look like the person that you've disassembled trust. Absolutely.
Andrea Enright 24:51
Yeah. And then you're jolted as well. I mean, this is what I tell people at LinkedIn profiles, like, don't make me think that you're 35 on the LinkedIn profile, and then I meet you and every release that you are 50. Like, that is a jolt. That is disrespectful. It helps you in no way. Right? Because it doesn't establish trust. Yeah, yeah. So then something else that a message I got when I lived in Bulgaria and the Peace Corps was that I worked with a lot of women and a couple of them are often saying, not often, they said, they said a few times like not to have too big of facial reactions, because that's creating wrinkles.
Janelle Orion 25:29
Hmm.
Andrea Enright 25:31
I was like, what? You know, I'm like, the biggest facial reactor ever. Yeah, like, oh, shit, that's not good for me. And I hate that. I mean, that's just like suppressing your joy, or your fear
Janelle Orion 25:42
or your all of it. Yeah, let's suppress emotion. You fray for Yeah, yeah,
Andrea Enright 25:47
so sad. And of course, we live in a society that, I mean, I never see a cemetery in my daily life, like, they're just far away, right? There's not room for them. I live in a very, very urban life. You know, our elders are in homes, they don't live with us. That's not really what our culture supports. And then staying youthful is a construct from marketing to that's really how, you know what we're marketed to, with, with all of the products too. So the big question is, do we really want to be younger? Like, what's the point of Looking Younger? Besides being what we deem is more attractive? Like, do we really want to negate all the wisdom and experience that we've gained? So then we did this experiment? Like,
Janelle Orion 26:30
what was your life like when we were 30? Yeah, like so didn't know what what did you say your 30 year old self was doing what my 30 year old self, my boyfriend's. I had a boyfriend smoked a lot of pot. We had great sex. And he wants soccer all the time. I had not been through a death yet. My mom was still alive. She had passed away. My priorities were socializing, drinking and racing mountain bikes. And I thought I was a great communicator. I socialize all the time, like a seven night a week hanging out, either with a boyfriend or a friend or, like I loved love socializing. And when I look at that woman, it's just like, oh, wow, she is just a sliver. She was beautiful. She was lovely. And nothing wrong with her. There was just I was only a sliver of who I have become. Yeah. And I have no desire to go back to her.
Andrea Enright 27:35
She's a sliver of the women you have become and an
Janelle Orion 27:38
important several like not like negating it,
Andrea Enright 27:40
but But right off of reverence and respect for that 30 year old self, even though she wasn't as wise as today, or, and so Oh, there's some song about bowing or respecting to all the women you've been before? What do you know what this song is? I've been trying to figure it out for a while. Like, I heard it somewhere. And I was like, Oh, I just ended this to my to my clients. Like, this is amazing.
Janelle Orion 28:04
No, I know. But I've heard this song, which means it's probably it's on one of my playlists.
Andrea Enright 28:08
Yeah, perhaps. Yeah. It's like a new age type of
Janelle Orion 28:11
exactly. One of my playlists, yes.
Andrea Enright 28:13
I'll do it. Like, there's a message in every one of her songs. It's not. And to me like that, like, Oh, my God enough already. Like, just give me some music. Like, I don't want to be learning constantly, or self helping constantly. But there is really good stuff. Like I have loved some of those, including turning wake. So what about you? Okay, so yes. So on that note, I also thought it was a great communicator, because I was, I was extroverted. And I like to communicate. And I know, you had to be social. And I was thinking when you said like, out every night of the week, I was like, shit, so exhausting. I wasn't like that was I. But I think I was like, definitely my 20s. I remember being with my boyfriend now husband, and saying he's like, something about not going out. And I was like, we have to do something tonight. Like, it was like, I couldn't stay home. That was like not allowed to do that. No, it is it's not even about me being tired. Now. It's about me needing downtime between the social. So anyway, that is a great communicator, I definitely was more passive aggressive. And my lesson about that was that one of the things I learned in yoga training, it was totally true is that most people either have a little more strength or a little more flexibility, but it's it's kind of a rarity if you have a lot of both. And I realized that I had strength, but I had more flexibility, which is actually a problem because I would just insert a strong opinion and then say, but Oh, it doesn't matter. I'm fine. Whatever. We do this, okay. So my flexibility would supersede it. And then I would just resent the choice that was made by someone else. Hmm. So I had strength and flexibility but my flexibility would like go higher. And then I would just be annoyed. Oh,
Janelle Orion 30:01
interesting. I feel like I'm like taking in this metaphor here. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 30:05
because it really was anyway, that that was how definitely something I've feel like I've tried to solve in the last five or 10 years. I was definitely just like so much more worried about how I was perceived. I was, I joined the Peace Corps with my husband at age 30. So that's what we were doing. We got married, and did that. My priorities were happy hours and Pottery Barn shelves and marathon training runs and booklet meetings. Banana Republic purchases. You know, I just used to stress. I was definitely going very quickly all the time. That was one thing I would tell my 30 year old self is like, slow down. But everything was very urgent. I was just kind of on a little buzz all the time. This is this is this is this is like, no time to really like I wasn't, I don't think I was playing the present moment a lot. Oh,
Janelle Orion 30:55
yeah, I would 100% agree with that. But I didn't know there was a personality either.
Andrea Enright 31:01
And I was happy, like I was having a good time. So we didn't know we didn't know. Right? And that's okay. So, what if we realized that there's this common shaming that I think gets in the way and I just spoke with my, one of my friends recently, who said, people are telling her, she's above 6063 64. And they're telling her Oh, my gosh, you should have chosen someone like, aren't you gonna regret it that you're not with someone now? Like, is she? She's single? She's single. Sorry, she's, and she's been single for maybe 20 years? Okay. He's recently widowed. Okay, two dates, you know, here and there, but then doesn't for a while. And I think there's just this shaming as though you didn't follow the rules. You didn't do it right, the right way. And so Aren't you upset now? And you're gonna really be sorry, in five years? And she's just like, oh, that's like, I like my life the way I'm doing it. And I think that just happened. And I think you also had, you know, a story. someone's mom, you said,
Janelle Orion 32:07
Yeah, I think I think the point about like, the shaming is how are we now right? So being single and older, someone shaming her right? And so someone for me, right? I'm 50 I'm divorced, and I have no kids. I have my beloved stepson spirits on. But you know, I have been told both by my dad, who that the best thing that he ever did was become a parent. And then I had another dear friend's mom, telling me, it's my dad and saying that is giving me a compliment. But also, there's this I don't even know, I can even think that he has awareness around this thing. The thing about for me is like, Oh, have I missed out on the best thing ever the exact that I have to like navigate that thought process course.
But then
I had a friend's mom telling me this is years ago before I had actually gotten married. So I was still in my 30s. And she had friends over. And so this is my mom, my heart. My friends are telling me this right? She had friends over and a woman who was in her 60s or 70s. Let her know that, you know, the number one regret that she had, was not having kids. And in this case, I believe that my friend's mom was making a point to me to be like, be careful about not having kids because you're gonna regret it. And it's really like, what I can hold now is that I have I have zero regrets about it. I went through grief about the fertility and different things. But that Oh, my life is as it is, and I get to have it be as fulfilling and as rich and as full of love as I wanted to be. And, and I don't need to take on someone else's. Either regret or cultural shaming
Andrea Enright 33:59
around it. Amen, sister. Yeah. That is so true. And just realizing I have to just like out this right now. Like two days ago at the retreat. One of your participants was saying, oh, Janelle is doing such a great job of taking care of us. She's like, so nurturing. And I think she alluded to something. But I think I said, Oh, yes, she would have been a great mom. Hmm. But like, I shouldn't have said that. Right. Like, that's not the right thing to say. I mean, it was fine. I meant some I didn't mean anything bad by it, but the better thing to say would have been Yes. She nurtures everyone she's around. She's such a mother to so many women. Is that what you are?
Janelle Orion 34:46
It's funny in my head I've had I think two psychics at least say, Oh, you're you are going to mother 1000s
Andrea Enright 34:54
Oh my god. Really? Yeah,
Janelle Orion 34:55
I'm holding a mother archetype. Oh, my gosh. without even realizing it that I am wearing this is the we're having a spirit con day, right? Here we are, as always, and I am wearing these two crowns that Anastasia made for me from everything represent the maiden archetype, and the mother archetype. And so here I am wearing the mother archetype. And tying back into aging, but also being a woman of like, Oh, I know who I am, I don't have children, and I'm still a value, I'm still a value to this culture, and to this community, and to people. And being a mother is not the only way that women are showing value. Yay,
Andrea Enright 35:34
that is beautiful. And I want to recognize that it takes a lot of strength, and a lot of courage. And I don't judge any of you for not doing it or having trouble doing it in the moment when you're faced with someone else's cultural conditioning that they're pushing on you. Mm hmm. I mean, not being married, not having kids not checking the box not doing what society tells you. Oh, no, this is next. You have to do this. You have to have a baby. You have to get married, whatever that is. It's hard. Like in sometimes you can just like shut up and not say anything. You know, what's the right line in that moment? Like, no, I'm not this way. That's okay. Even it's just something as simple as like, yeah, I've really made some good choices for me. I mean, that's enough. Like, I
Janelle Orion 36:19
don't know. It's perfect. But that's just Yeah, right. I mean, maybe
Andrea Enright 36:25
you can find what works for you, but have something ready. If you if you feel like this is something that you faced, I mean, in in for Weddings and a Funeral. I'll just go ahead and mention a movie, right? Because I haven't the least 20 minutes. So they say, you know, they're all going to these weddings, right? And there's this conversation between like, say a 32 year old and like a 65 year old and a 65 year old looks at 32 year old and said, oh, so are you married? And she says no, she doesn't. And then she said, Are you a lesbian? She said no. She was like, Why did you ask that? And she's like, well, isn't it better than saying, tilting my head giving you sympathy and saying just haven't found the right chap yet? Right? It's like that kind of interchange still happens. I don't know if it's, it's common hope it's not but being ready to like kind of face that cultural conditioning and be able to say, No, I liked my life the way it is.
Janelle Orion 37:21
Mm hmm. And I think that there's a part of the shaming that when it's inverted, is Oh, you look actually free. And happy, right to the older person, to the other woman. And that actually allowed her okay, I guess that's like, there's kind of like a poke in that for for those women who are exuding that. And as we were coming into menopause, are in it, and learning. There is something extraordinarily freeing about being less concerned about how we look. Exhale. Yeah. And what other people think. Yeah. And when I say when we're talking about like, Oh, why why is it that we not care about wrinkles is because there's so much else I don't care about, as well. Right. And of the things that I do care about, I actually know that they're mine and true, and they are more important. And so there is I wanted to make sure that we're talking to the freedom that comes along with societies like, oh, maybe there's like less relevance, or you haven't followed the norms?
Andrea Enright 38:43
What I'm hearing and what I feel like we can segue into now, is it like there's a freedom to, oh, do I have to keep coloring my hair? Do I have to get Botox? If I want to be seen? Do I have to, you know, get liposuction? I mean, I know somebody that just did that. Like, like, there's this pressure? And what if you could feel free not to get not to tan your skin? Not to put zero serum on your eyelashes? Not to color your hair now, if you want to? And you like doing it? Awesome. There's absolutely no judgment either way. But I think some people feel that pressure to do it, right, because everybody else is doing it because they don't look young enough because their eyelashes gotten thin.
Janelle Orion 39:16
Or they're not gonna they don't feel like they look pretty without it. Right. Right. So
Andrea Enright 39:21
I mean, there is that freedom there to just to stop, you know, stop trying to keep up with that. That constant competition, right. That's also talking about
Janelle Orion 39:29
what inspires us because how did we get here? Yeah, right. A feeling? Yeah. Because it's not like, Oh, I'm just I just was able to avoid all of the conditioning about eating and women. Yeah, of course not. Yeah. So what are some of the things that inspired you along the way to change your mindset? I don't know. Okay, all right. I've got a list. That's where I think you do have a list. Yes. So one is that for whatever reason, I have always had older women friends.
Andrea Enright 39:59
Oh, yes, me too. Me too. And that's huge, huge. I like, viewed you absolutely. And I even now, like still so many older women friends, I
Janelle Orion 40:07
have friends in their 60s in their 70s in their 80s. Yeah.
Andrea Enright 40:11
And so I think that has a couple different benefits, though. One is that it was always the youngest person, sometimes in the group, just a weird sort of feeling. But like, it is kind of nice. It's like, oh, and it was always learning from them. Right. So much wisdom reference. Like, being old isn't bad, right? No, I
Janelle Orion 40:28
mean, like, they actually have answers to all of the questions that I have. It's so true. Yeah, that's amazing. Yes. And then, also, I've done a couple of things like I was a mountain biker, and a road biker for a long, long time. And I remember when I was in my 20s, and I was road biking, and I was road racing. And the people who I was riding bikes with were of all ages, and there were people in their 80s, who were riding bikes I was riding with and they were kicking my ass. And it was a recognition, oh, this is a sport that you can actually do forever. So recognizing you could be an athlete in your 80s is really important to me as an athlete in my 20s. Yeah, I was like, Oh, I remember when I was in college. I as an athlete, I thought that when I graduated, then I stopped being an athlete, because I was like, it just there was something about like, no, no, you're an adult now. We're supposed to soccer so yes. Right. And so this like, oh, no, like there's things actually continue your whole life, not just because you're getting older that you have to stop. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 41:25
I think it's something you've taught me is that I had some idea early on that age is something I have to call out in a diff. Like, I think there's some kind of age lessness to like, some of the circles that you're swimming in. And the events that you go to I mean, you definitely hang out with way younger people than I do. Who are different life stages. And that, I think the fact that it age just isn't a factor. Right? It seems like it's invisible.
Janelle Orion 41:56
Yeah. To some degree. Yeah. I mean, like, touch one of my other best friends is 34. Now, right? May is also 34. I have? Yeah. So he's 32. Now, I think so I have a lot of really, really, really close, incredibly wise women, who are they're young, early 30s, right. In my world, I have women in their late 30s. I have, like, who I'm also really close with. And then I also like my women's circle, we were in our 30s, we're in our 50s and and we're in our 60s. So there's also this like rain, like we have a new mom. And we have a many, many, many times over grandmother in the circle. And so the multi generational aspect of things feel so important. There's so much wisdom to be gained, that has helped me see the sages of the maiden, the mother and the crone and to be excited about about each one, but also honoring and respectful and reverence for each one.
Andrea Enright 42:55
Yeah. Hey, there's also something to this is something you said to me and that I saw also at a retreat where if you want to exclude yourself, then you will, right? If you're feeling and I as I have felt sometimes when I go to retreat, and I'm like, oh, everyone's 36, and I'm 48, or whatever it was right? And there is some kind of, like, if I noticed that and say, Oh, well, I'm not, I don't belong, then I won't belong. Like, like, this is definitely a self fulfilling prophecy.
Janelle Orion 43:26
Right. And I feel like the commonality in that realm is, are you young at heart? Yeah. I think the younger heart attitude mentality, right, my dad at 93, young at heart, for sure. And then the 30 year olds and the 20 year olds that I'm friends with young at heart, and so we That, to me, is an ageless quality. And I think it speaks to what you're talking about. Absolutely.
Andrea Enright 43:50
And my parents have always, always been very young at heart, like, very active, always moving. Like, you know, not afraid to be trendy. Just they're like, No, we don't have to feel old. Right. And that's always been a good model for me. So watch, like, oh, yeah, I can. I'm just I'm only as old as I think I am. Right. Yeah. And yeah, that's, that's huge. Yeah.
Janelle Orion 44:18
You know, as we're talking about this, I also just want to acknowledge I'm not like above I am, I am not all natural. Like, I have friends who are like, Okay, I'm not gonna do any hair removal. And I'm like, actually, I still am right. Like I did laser hair removal when I was in my 20s. I still shave I save my armpits. I have other friends who don't I still do. I do color my hair to same color. I've had my whole life but I'm like, Oh, I'm really excited to be gray when I'm probably in my 60s. So I also honor that for myself. I give myself that Vic, you know, the gray hair matches my insides more right now. So yeah, so I don't want people to be bravehearts to think that we're like if you're doing anything to to cave into a prayer Just society's telling you that like, is anything wrong with that? It's like no, absolutely. We're so yeah, I'm
Andrea Enright 45:05
coloring my hair and I'm tanning my skin with a lotion and I even tried some, some Botox like, oh, what I'm just like, Okay, there's no reason for me to judge that when I don't even know what it is. And what is it? Like? What does it do? I've only had it once. And yeah, okay. I mean, I get it. Like, it definitely takes away my sunrays and my lens on my head. And it's an option. And if that works for you, if that makes you feel more radiant, and beautiful, or power to you. Awesome, right?
Janelle Orion 45:34
Are there is that the quality of like, Oh, I'm doing this for someone else? Am I doing it for myself? I
Andrea Enright 45:38
think that's the main question. Yeah. I mean, I think that like how you can say young, I think the best way I feel like that I'm always really just capturing and, and expressing my vibrancy is to keep changing, and keep growing, and keep learning and keep trying. Right, and not get stuck or stagnant. That to me is kind of the, like, the red flag of age like, oh, nothing's changing. Like, I'm just doing the same thing. Like if you're happy, great, but that for me, I know, I have to like keep shifting things, whether that's once every two weeks or once every six months, right? Yeah,
Janelle Orion 46:19
I guess something similar. It's it's a mindset if it's like, oh, I is I think the phrase I'm too old for that is, yeah, like one of the hallmarks of like, oh, there's something that's there's a stuck energy there. It's like that, are you really limiting yourself because, you know, if you're an Instagram, you can find the people who are breaking the Guinness World Records of 99 years old, and you're diving off of a hybrid or whatever it is, like there's some right like, your body can do things. It's just about what your mind is telling you. You can and can't do. And it may not be the same way that you think. Right. But I used to play volleyball and I think, Oh, I'm never going to play volleyball the skill that I or the level that I did, but it doesn't mean I can't actually play. Yeah, absolutely.
Andrea Enright 47:02
That's huge. All right, we want you to just help us just help you think about aging. Like, you don't have to go embrace your age. You don't have to like do anything necessarily differently. We just invite you bravehearts like consider what we said about aging. It's an ongoing discussion. And I have moments when I'm really fucking pissed off that I have hot flashes and I can't sleep and my knees hurt when I run. Like and still. I don't want to be my 30 year old self.
Janelle Orion 47:33
Yes, exactly. And if you're if you are someone who's scanning social media, then like look for people who actually have aged positivity as a theme of their brand. Yeah, because I there's a couple of women that I have followed midlife Muse being one of them. Did you read the other one? That was that?
Andrea Enright 47:54
Tamsin? Tamsin? Yeah. I've seen this is the one I've been like, like, Oh, yep, I'm really I'm definitely reading her posts. So
Janelle Orion 48:01
if you're like, I'm not sure like, there are people out there there are women who are absolutely fucking inspiring about the messages they have around age about what they would tell their younger self, how they're navigating menopause, all these different things. And so it's not it's
Andrea Enright 48:18
not all youth out there. It's not all like, like touching up and smoothing. I mean,
Janelle Orion 48:23
it's it's so much. So the point is, I'm thinking who can you can find the new needle in the haystack and there are women who are really like helping all of us embrace absolutely
Andrea Enright 48:34
an aging is it is a topic of our Braveheart conversations which we are now having local at the goddess temple in Denver, as well as in our satellite locations. Philly, New York, Boston. We encourage you to visit permission to be human dot live and sign up. Come see us come have a Braveheart conversation with us
Janelle Orion 48:55
in real life not recorded. The other podcast is just a conversation. Okay, we love you bye
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