Y’all ready for this? Janelle and Andrea interview sex therapist Megan Phippen and there are too many mic drops to count…..as she explains how she helps clients claim their desire, authorize their sovereign self, connect sex and spirit (!!) and go from pressure and performance to patience and pleasure. Fun fact: Sex hormones and stress hormones cannot be released at the same time. There’s a nod to Christine Caldwell’s book “Bodyfulness: Somatic Practices for Presence, Empowerment, and Waking Up in This Life”. You’ll hear:
--Exact phrases to begin the sex and intimacy conversation
--Why the conversation should be a co-created effort with lots of curiosity
--How to go from pressure and performance to pleasure and patience
--Why taking sex OFF the table works for mismatched desires
--How to navigate desires that don’t feel aligned with your identity
--Lots of compassion for our evolving bodies
TRANSCRIPT:
Janelle Orion 0:01
Struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave,
what if your breakup could
Andrea Enright 0:41
be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts.
Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth.
If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel left alone along the way we got you,
Janelle Orion 1:08
O, M, G,
Andrea Enright 1:12
I was like, That was better, like talking to Megan Phippen was better than any podcast I've ever listened to. Like a more informative, more sacred, more authentic, more in service to couples talking about sex and intimacy than anything I've read or listened to.
Janelle Orion 1:31
Yeah, I am my mind blown though the wisdom that she shared, the tangible skills that she shared. It also just felt so affirming to my and your life experience that we have stumbled and fumbled and been messy and painful as fuck all of these years that it's like, oh, there's actually a field that is very small and very niche that and I'm not even gonna assume that every single sex therapist is as fucking brilliant as she is, but that she was able to convey with such clarity,
Andrea Enright 2:07
so well articulated on what we need to do first, and what good news it is that we that we can connect sex and spirit and come into this with ease and love and with slow sensuality instead of pressure and stress
Janelle Orion 2:27
and that we want to lead with connect our desire for connection and pleasure with the person that we love. Okay, Bravehearts, you are in for a treat. So buckle your seat belts, get your journals out and stay tuned, because your mind is about to be blown.
Andrea Enright 2:45
Hi, brave hearts. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea and I'm Janelle. This is a fourth in our 12 part series to help you talk to your partner about sex and intimacy. This is our second expert interview, and we're so psyched to go even deeper into the deeper layers of how to talk to your partner about sex and intimacy.
Janelle Orion 3:09
And we are so excited to introduce Megan Phippen. She's a somatic sex and relationship therapist. Megan is a clinically trained somatic sex and relationship therapist who guides individuals and couples through the alchemy of transformation, using the fire of their challenges to ignite deeper intimacy and connection grounded in a somatic trauma informed queer, affirming and sex positive perspective, she creates a safe, non judgmental and empowering space for exploration and growth. Her work invites clients to step into the truth of who they are and cultivate relationships rooted in vitality and authenticity. Megan, we're so excited to have you here today, just like reading how you view like clients and relationships and intimacy, it's like, already I feel like warm and gooey in my heart. Yeah, it was so aligned with us. Yeah,
Megan 4:10
thank you, and thank you so much for the invitation, for having me absolutely.
Janelle Orion 4:15
So my first question, since you are our second expert, is for you to define the difference between a sex therapist versus other types of couples therapists. Is there a difference? And why would someone choose one type of therapy over another? Yeah, so
Megan 4:34
sex therapists specialize. It's our niche is in sexuality. In all aspects, you can kind of further niche out into that if you want. I specialize in sex and intimacy, so I'm working with individuals and couples, and what differentiates that is therapists are not required to have any training in sexuality whatsoever outside of the states of California and Florida. So. So even if you're working with couples, there's no requirement at all. And you know, so so many therapists don't know how to talk to their clients about sex, so they can't help their clients talk about sex with their partners. And so that's what distinguishes me and my work from other therapists, is just having this specialization and centeredness around sex and
Janelle Orion 5:26
sexuality beautiful. I always love learning something new and wild to think about. I would think so many couples go to a therapist to talk about sex and intimacy and amazing that in 48 states not required to have any knowledge on those topics, right? Yeah, it's
Megan 5:43
pretty disturbing, actually, because sex is not separate from life and it's not separate from relating and embodiment. We need as clinicians to have these tools to support our clients and having these dialogs, not only in their own self inquiry, but with the people they're relating to. You know,
Andrea Enright 6:06
I wonder if that is just a general like, a generation, a century of like, sex is taboo. We'll put sex over here. We're not going to talk about it like that. This in the same way that, you know that doctors don't know about women's health very much.
Janelle Orion 6:23
Yeah, right, I
Andrea Enright 6:25
know, but I but this is, yeah, this is fascinating. I did not, did not know this, so, yeah, thanks for that.
Megan 6:30
Yeah. I think it just perpetuates the split and the shame and yeah, keeps things in the shadow and in the taboo. And so so many of my clients have never spoken to their therapists about sex, and sometimes they'll have their own regular therapist in addition to the work that we're doing and keeping it separate. But yeah, it's, it's really woven so deeply into the fabric of who we are. So yeah, that's, that's a paradigm shift that I'm really hoping for in this industry.
Janelle Orion 7:04
So I'm like vibrating with excitement like hearing you just name all of this, because obviously, as an erotic wellness practitioner myself, who feels that just normalizing the need for the recognition of education and skills in the area of pleasure and intimacy helps us all feel more alive, helps us have more fulfilling relationships. And as much as I know culturally that there's shame in talking about these things, I kind of forget that it's also systematically institutionalized in the education of the people who we're supposed to go to to help us.
Megan 7:39
Oh, it's fucked up, can I swear, right, yeah, yeah. And I think that's what makes this topic so hard to talk about, right? Yes, you know, just as we're in embedded in these systems, they're embedded within us. And, you know, we're just swimming in these like relics of puritanism and sex is only reserved for procreation or marriage, or it's a function. You know, so much of sex education is around functionality, or, you know, fear based, you know, narratives around, don't get an STI don't get pregnant danger, or it's just not discussed in the homes we're growing up in. And without these models, healthy, overt, uncensored models for communication, it's hard to understand our bodies, understand our pleasure, and then be able to articulate, like, what our desires are, what our boundaries are, and what we want, because it's just laced with this. Don't go there. Yes,
Andrea Enright 8:48
yes. And so
Janelle Orion 8:49
what got you interested in this topic for yourself,
Megan 8:54
talking about sex or just sex therapy in general?
Janelle Orion 8:58
Yeah, it could be either way. Like, whether, like, you know, like, What drew you to wanting to be on permission to be human, but also, like, I would assume that that's your own stories in that as well becoming a sex therapist, yeah,
Megan 9:10
yeah, you know, I didn't always expect to become a sex therapist. I knew I wanted to be a therapist and support people in the way that, you know, I was supported, you know, for so many years in therapy, and I studied Transpersonal Counseling. But what was really lacking from that, my program, and just that model in general, was the sexual nature of humanity and the unity between sex and spirit, and I'm just thinking like, how can we neglect this? So I started doing some qualitative research in into kink and BDSM, and was just so inspired by my clients and their stories, and you know, so many of them mirrored my. Own in so many ways, and just the healing potential of sex and sexuality, and expanding the definition of that to include all aspects of sensuality and pleasure, I think, is one of the most healing paths we can take in these fleshy human bodies. You know, what are we here to experience, if not like, the material, sensual pleasure of what it means to be human, what's
Janelle Orion 10:26
so beautiful, and what's coming up for me is like with within the topic of what we're doing today, which is how to talk to my partner about sex and intimacy, is what I'm hearing is that if you've been able to expand the framework to what you said about like, sexuality being a function of being human, but like also a beautiful aspect of being human, a normal aspect, and that there is this connection between sexuality and spirit. Then suddenly the edginess of talking about this with the people that we love takes on a different tenor, right? There's a maybe it's like, it's like, invites more courage just by thinking about it differently. And so more than the logistics, why would you say it's so important to talk to your partner about sex and intimacy.
Megan 11:23
Wow. Well, we can't get what we want if we don't talk about it, like
Andrea Enright 11:29
mic drop, yeah.
Megan 11:30
And so it's so true. It's also like, I think about the self inquiry journey, like so many of us are, you know, detached from our bodies and our sense of self and pleasure in that way. And so I feel like talking about sex is so much more than just that act of talking. It's like that self inquiry of knowing yourself, knowing your body, knowing your desires. And how do I embody my authenticity in a way where I can bring it to the relational plane and, like, enhance intimacy and bring the juice. And I think it's really just about allowing ourselves to be known. And so many of us, like that's so deeply healing, because so many of us actually think most of us are negotiating throughout our life this tension between authenticity and attachment. If I'm who the truth of who I am, am I still going to be loved? Am I still going to get love and care? Or am I too bratty, too loud, too much? And this comes back to our childhood, but so it's like that authenticity and intimacy thing that we're negotiating. So when we can navigate this skillfully and and have compassion for our partners and ourselves, and, like you said, Janelle, like the humanity of it all, it becomes just like the permission slip that we need to, yeah, be human, be ourselves. You know,
Andrea Enright 12:55
amazing. Oh my God, there's so many juicy nuggets in what you just said, like, but I love this, this tension between authenticity and attachment, and so if I don't know what I want, or if a Braveheart doesn't know what she wants, how does she figure that out? Yeah, I think
Megan 13:15
it's this slow journey into what I refer to as, like body fullness and embodied pleasure. So it's not so much like you know, mindfulness is this big buzzword, but I believe it was Christine Caldwell who introduced, she wrote this book called body fullness, and it changed my life. And it just spoke to this idea of your consciousness. And Bonnie Bainbridge Cohen's work in body, mind centering as well. For anyone who's listening and is interested, it's that we have consciousness in all of our cells and when we get out of our brains, aka the conditioning of how the world taught us how we should be and into our bodies and learn. You know, sensation is the first language that we speak, you know, before we have cognitive capacities, before we're verbal, we have sensations, and we learn to relate to them, but we get some sort of fracturing along the way due to the conditioning and efficiency culture, and we have that mind body split. So it's like slowly coming back into the body and exploring a relationship with touch and pleasure. And you know, I'm sipping this tea and it feels good and it tastes good, but the question I ask my clients, and this is where we get into embodied pleasure, is, how do you know it feels good? What are the cues that your Soma is communicating to you that lets you know you're in pleasure, versus just the cognitive this should feel good, right? Because it's this type of sex or this type of food or whatever. So it's kind of getting in touch with more of like the truth of what your body's needing and wanting, versus what you learned about what it means to. Be a sexual being. You know, there's
Janelle Orion 15:03
so much juiciness in everything you just
said, like, literally every
Megan 15:06
word, I can slow down, no,
Janelle Orion 15:09
it's okay. What I would love for you to do, though, is to go into the example what you just said, of, how do you know it feels good? So right now you're sipping your tea. If you were gonna tell a client, what is it that they're paying attention to in their body. Like, can you walk us through what it would be like to, like, go into the body in that moment to say, Oh, what am I paying attention to?
Megan 15:30
Yeah, well, first, like, I'll zoom out as I like, to invite clients to feel into the support of where their body is making contact, because that brings us into contact with our the like a conscious borders of between self and the world. And so feeling into like, where you're supported by the chair or the floor, where's your skin making contact the clothes or the air, and there's that subtle sensuality and and that, and that tends to be an easier avenue for people to begin, especially because I work with a lot of trauma where, like, just going into the body can be shocking and traumatizing for so many people. So just being able to feel into that is is the starting layer. And I invite people to take kind of like a posture of curiosity, which is a widening so feeling your breath on the inhale, noticing how your back body expands, how your pelvis expands to make contact with the support. And there's a reason for that, not just to get people in touch, but, you know, to get out of more of a focus lens. I'm hunting for a sensation. I'm hunting for pleasure. I'm trying to perform for the therapist. I'm trying to get it right. But when we have this more wide, like, you know, we're doing a like flashlight versus a laser pointer view of the self, we create some sort of opening for sensations to arise. So in this example, you know, for me, okay, I'm sitting here, I can feel myself enough, and I sit my tea, and we'll do this in real time. How do I know it feels good well for me, like the warmth just kind of like the way that it like trickled down my throat and esophagus. I can feel it. And I feel this like expansion in my chest. I feel like my mouth salivating more. I think it's the goji berries. Just tastes like fruity and flavorful, and so those little things that are like, Oh, I'm in pleasure. And what's so beautiful about this is we have some signature and overlap. So if I start to play with this, you know, say I I don't have a ton of access to sexuality, as I've been taught, we can work with other elements, like, Well, what do you know? What activities do you do? What do you know that brings you pleasure in your body or helps you feel connected to your body? And so for some people, it's like a certain food or a certain movement, practice or cooking or playing an instrument or painting, and so I'll invite them to do that meditation and feel into what do you notice in your body? And I'm tracking how their posture changes, how their breath changes. And these are things that I can reflect back to say, like, this is actually your sexuality. Sex is just one tiny piece. Your sexuality is a warm expanded chest is salivation is deep belly breaths, is that subtle swaying that you're doing when you're talking about how much you love to dance. And so this is part of like expanding the definition of sex and sexuality to include the sensuality that is trying to speak through the body when you know we'll just when we just slow down and listen and get out of our heads about it. That makes sense. It absolutely
makes sense. I want to actually invite all boys to take a deep breath and get into our bodies right now and follow Megan's lead and just feel yourself sitting, whether it's in your car or in a chair, and imagine feeling the edge of yourself against the air, against the chair, against your clothing. So you find yourself in space and time in this body.
Janelle Orion 19:43
And as you take another deep breath and come back to the profundity of Megan, everything that Megan is saying that we. What I'm loving about this is she's guiding us. What I'm feeling Megan, is you're guiding me into how do I talk to my partner about sex and intimacy? Is first, let me know where my body is, where am I in this moment, and get my guess. And I'm gonna invite this as the next question is, once I know what it is that I desire, what it is that I want, and I've learned how to feel it in my body. Now, it makes it a lot easier to start communicating it, even though there could be still some blocks in the throat chakra. But like, what would you say is the next step, once you've kind of grounded in your body and desires?
Megan 20:39
Yeah, yeah, let me just take a second. I just
Andrea Enright 20:42
want to say, Wait, brave hearts, are you writing this down? Like, brave hearts, write this down like, I hope you have your journals out ready. This is good shit. This is how to do it. I'm sorry. Megan,
Megan 20:55
yeah, it's sort of like, fundamentally, how do we talk to our partners about what we want if we don't know what that fully is. So there's that journey, and then sometimes what comes up is like, we realize there's something that we want and we're afraid of it because it might contrast with like or conflict with the idea of who we see ourselves. As the most common one that shows up in my work is a feminist. I'm an empowered woman, but I want to be taken. I want to be ravished. I want to be claimed. And is that okay? Am I safe enough to communicate that and to do that? Or, you know, I spend so much time supporting my clients in like your fantasy is normal and okay, and you're okay and there's nothing wrong with you for having that. So actually, I almost think that's the next step before communicating to our partners is kind of claiming, claiming it for ourselves. Because so much of the fear of telling, you know, talking about sex with our partners is, if I, if I share what I want and they don't want it to, I'm gonna feel exposed and rejected and like, what does that mean for our relationship? So rather than throwing people into the wolves of like, just be completely fearless. It's like, actually, like, slowing down and feeling your fear, and kind of the language that I like to use is like, what does this fear or resistance need to soften without force, and so that you can be in relationship with the truth of your desires and be in relationship with fear, not in a way where fear is driving the seat, but you're holding it and taking it with you so that, because it does happen. You know, sometimes people say or claim a desire that they have and their partner doesn't, and if they're not embodied and holding their fear and like aligned in the congruency of their worthiness, regardless, it's going to be catastrophic. Of like, Oh, my God, I'm fundamentally unlovable because my partner doesn't want this, versus I know I'm worthy and safe and my desires regardless, does Yeah. Does that make sense?
Janelle Orion 23:14
It definitely makes sense, okay. And it's definitely my embodied experience and like my envision that I have when you're like, oh, bring my fear with me. Is me holding a little baby for whatever reason. Like, I'm just like, cradling a baby in my arm, and I'm like, I got you right. And I'm just like, petting its petting its head, and I'm like, okay, everything's okay. So I'm curious, how would you invite someone? How would you invite a brave heart to I loved, first of all, I loved the example as someone who's done this themselves, gone from the feminist worldview to feminine of wanting to be taken. How do you help someone support them, changing from their own judgment, their own fear of what they should be, should like, versus simply what they like and what they want. Yeah,
Megan 24:04
well, we can't transcend what we don't know. So it's really like knowing all of those parts, all of those judgments, all of those criticisms, and working with them individually until we feel like, comp, I It's like, confident enough. It doesn't have like, there's no perfect safety. There's no like, flawless confidence without a personality disorder. It's really just being like, you know, I'm I'm okay in this and I think there's like a differentiation process between who we ourselves, like actually are at our core, and like who the world told us that we should be. And that's why I call my business sovereign self. It's not. You know, and I feel misunderstood in this, because as a relationship therapist, it's not about like, Oh, you're like, on your own, and it's like, you're all out for yourself and like, Fuck the relational it's about being self, like, authorized and like, noticing, like, we need to know our conditioning, and anytime we're not moving from a place of awareness, which is really, I'll go back to your question of how, because I think I'm talking around it, slowing down, being in the body, feeling yourself, where do you Begin? Where do you end? Where does the world begin? And so that's what I love to work with, like just, just skin and touch and things like that. Because it's like that. It's the, like external nervous system in a way, of how we're interfacing with the world. And I'm noticing, as I talk about it, it's like hard to describe linearly, because it's such an embodied process. So if I'm working with something so a client, and they're talking about, oh, well, like, I can't want this because, for example, I'm tracking what's happening in their body, maybe there's a caving in the thoracic cavity, you know, like, I'll ask them what's happening in their body, and they can, they might be able to describe a sensation, but if they can't, I actually invite them to go into or amplify, call it a shadow movement. So as we're talking about, you know, all aspects of our self, we're moving in ways. And that's the beauty of somatic therapy. And the mirroring process is like, oh, there's something. There's a story that your body's trying to tell. So I might invite a client to oh, I noticed this caving in the thoracic cavity. I want you to amplify and follow that movement impulse. Spend some time there. What do you notice? Does that feel familiar? Oh, this reminds me of the time that I was caught masturbating at six years old, and I was told that good girls don't do that. And those are, those are private. And I developed this story of shame around, like my my desires, and I have this, like, literal womb brain split because of it, and so that often the stories will come up just from going into the body, like it doesn't have to be this whole I'm this way because it's just like, let's explore this range of what's wanting to come through your body and letting it speak.
Andrea Enright 27:34
Because I've also experienced being like, Oh no, I'm supposed to be this way. I am this way in life, but I want this in bed, right or and so when we go through that experience, you're saying, look, it's, it's, it's okay. I guess my question is that I want to, I want to explain to brave hearts, maybe you can do the best job of explaining it, that it, it feels like it's okay to have two opposing feelings or thoughts, because we are complex humans, but yet, still, it feels a little bit off to me, like, how can I want that when I want this? I was literally just explaining this to my teenager, like, oh, I actually am a feminist, and I like it when someone holds the door for me, like she didn't do that because she wouldn't. Yeah, she's too cool to sort of, actually, she's just thinking about it. But I'm like, No, that totally exists. I want to be ravaged. I want to be dominated. I want someone to decide for me. I want someone to take care of me. And I feel very powerful as a woman, and these things live together, yeah. How do you get there? How do you be okay with both? I mean,
Megan 28:46
simply put, like, drop the over identification with the labels about what it means to be this or what it means to be that. Because if I'm so attached to my identity as a feminist, I'm not creating I mean, and that can be a part of it, right? But then we're also taking the relics of what society has made that become, if that makes sense. And this even shows up in like, queerness for myself and so many of my clients, as if we're, like, hyper fixated on this label. Like, do we really get to be the breadth and the truth of who we are, which is, like, so multi dimensional? Like, why can't we be feminists and want to be like, fucked and taken and have the door open for us and be provided for? Like, who said? And so it's a fun I just, I think of, like, this whole journey of embodiment and embodied sexuality. Is this like fun permission slip to follow our pleasure and like what wants to come through us. Sometimes we do have to, like, negotiate between the stories, if they they feel like there's the. Like big tension, but, you know, I think it's we get to be who we are without the labels that you know, of course, we want to belong in community, but we don't want to confine ourselves, and we don't want the rigidity of that just to make other people comfortable, or us to be like, palatable and understood what matters is like we understand ourselves and when we embody that authenticity in our relationships and bring that forward without shame, like, yeah, we might lose the people that aren't for us, but we find our community and we find the intimacy that's so gratifying and fulfilling. So I think that, I hope that answered your question, and maybe I went on a little more and just followed the momentum of whatever wanted to come through the channel.
Janelle Orion 30:50
Oh, good. Thank you for addressing that.
Okay, what I'm hearing with Andrea's question and you're answering is the paradox of being human, that all these things exist simultaneously, and that it's actually what you just said, Megan about, not over identifying, that it's okay to be the householder and the, you know, the breadwinner or the manager or in charge of all of these things, and it's okay to also want something different in the bedroom, like these two things, like one doesn't define the other. And in fact, a question for you, Megan, is that what I'm hearing is that if we find our authenticity and allow it in our sexuality and in the bedroom, then that probably is within impacts the rest of our life, so that we feel more alive, more full, and more
Megan 31:47
seen. Yes, yes. I think it's understanding that and giving permission to the fact that we are paradoxes too. I love that you brought that in. One of my favorite things that Carl Jung taught is the tension between the opposites produces the third thing. So if we're feeling torn, we can sit in the tension and like the third thing is not a thing at all. It's a present moment, embodied experience, like moment to moment, embodied experience and expression of who we are. So when we're trying to like, even when we're trying to like, figure out, like, I need to know exactly what I want so I can communicate it to my partner and like, have it wrapped up in a bow. Not, not even necessarily, like, we just have to be in touch with our bodies enough to know like, I want to feel this way, and then it becomes this, like CO created effort with lots of curiosity of, how do we get there together? It's this exploration of shared pleasure verse, you know, a problem to be solved, of like we got to talk about this or this isn't enough. It's just what wants to come through our bodies, and where do we interface? Yeah,
Janelle Orion 33:07
I love
that. Megan. I'm like, I'm like, so excited. You're literally using the words that I use, like with my clients, where I say, oh, okay, this is going to be a co creation of the truth that's between us. And one thing that I want to call out that I'm also just seeing between the three of us here and what we each offer and the journey of embodying our sexuality is so like Andrea, who's a Braveheart coach, works with people online to help them just even identify what it is like in the transition of their lives, like, what is, what is the fear that they've been kind of holding on to and giving them permission to allow just to want it and to allow for it. And then, like, Megan, what I hear you doing is like, especially in this realm of sexuality is, I mean, you're bringing such embodied wisdom and knowledge and just yet profundity of, okay, here's the why, here's the how, and here's all the tools to help you navigate through now that you've identified what it is, some of the desires, what you want, and then me as The embodied practitioner, right? Oh, and now you can practice with Janelle, like, here's what it's like to actually live in your body, to feel in your body what it is. So I'm just, I'm just seeing that thread of that, and it's kind of mirroring the journey, like the three of us are mirroring the journey that you're speaking to Megan of, like how we get to knowing what it is that we want, and then getting to embody it,
Andrea Enright 34:42
yeah, yeah. Which leads us back to, how do you talk to your partner about what you want?
Janelle Orion 34:50
Right? Third neck, the next step, yeah.
Megan 34:52
So then once we kind of integrated all these pieces, and we feel safe enough to broach this and have the. Conversation, I think first, like slowing down, because so many times when people want to broach sex with their partner, it's because something's unsatisfying. There's the moment to moment, or I should say in the moment, like, Oh yeah, that feels good. Or I'm going to move your hand here. I'm going to communicate through a moan. And then there's the Whoa. We need to have a bigger conversation about our sex life. And usually by the time couples see me, it's there's like a huge split. But what I will say is, you know, recognizing first and foremost, like, why do you want to talk about sex. Like, what are the goals? Not so much because I'm frustrated or I'm unsatisfied, or I want it this way, and I never get this. But what's the ideal outcome? And typically for people, it's connection and pleasure. So I like to invite people to, like, let that be your guiding light. Like, remember, you want connection and pleasure with your partner. You don't want to berate them, or, you know, tear them down. You're on the same team, and you likely have the same goal, if it's connection and pleasure, right? And so if we lead with our frustrations, it's usually not going to go well, just because of the shame around sex and what that means for so many people. So if I show up to my partner and I'm just like, you never make me come, how do you think they're gonna feel?
Janelle Orion 36:34
Yeah, not great, right? First,
Megan 36:36
like, hey, you know, I'm really desiring to connect more with you in this way, or, you know, and if we want to be specific about things, I think, well, I'll backtrack for a second. I think if we're having bigger conversations, creating as much structure as possible around them is helpful so that we can make sure that we are prioritizing moving at the pace of the intimacy and the relationship rather than the outcome of, you know, what we're like so gung ho about so it's like leading with what we want as the outcome, but it's, it's pacing and slowing down and being with Okay, are we regulated enough? Maybe I say, you know, I want to talk about our sex life, you know, is this a good time? And, oh, my god, like now I'm anxious already, okay, noticing that tightness in your chest now we co regulate. We're talking and communicating at the pace of our intimacy and our connection and prioritizing that above all else, versus getting our needs met over the other at the expense of the other person, and dumping our charge onto them, like so much when we like, Okay, finally, like, they're ready to listen to me about all of the things I've been wanting to say about sex. So I create this list of every way I'm unsatisfied, and it's like, oh my gosh, no, leading with the I love it when I crave, when I'm longing for this I miss this is a completely different energy than like you never fuck me like that or Whatever, like we never do it this way, or, I don't know, whatever the complaint could be.
Andrea Enright 38:27
Yeah, those are really good concrete tips too. And concrete like ways to phrase. I think that's awesome,
Janelle Orion 38:33
and I'm loving this context of in a conversation we're leading with connection and pleasure, right? I think brave hearts like, let's just just, I'll just take that on, right? That we're saying that in any conversation with our partners, we're actually seeking connection and pleasure, and that that is what we want to as you said, Megan, lead with that, I want to, I want to dig into a little bit more is in the how of that. So if we think like the conversation, we're gonna, you know, maybe we have, we've blocked out a time, we have a half an hour, maybe an hour, to talk, and at the end of that, we have an expectation or a destination. And what I'm hearing with you is no you may end up CO regulating as the phrase that you use, and I love for you to, like, explain that like, which it could be like sitting back to back or doing belly to belly for an hour, and you might not talk about anything, but you're just seeking connection and pleasure with each other. Yeah,
Megan 39:36
yeah, because I find that when I'm working with people who are in long term relationships, and this topic comes up for the first time. You know the other person's like, I've seen this happen in real time, like this utter shock and fear and shame of how long have you been feeling this way? And am I just like a disappointment? And so again, rather than just. Giving the other person the floor while their partner's suffering and festering in shame, slowing down again, prioritizing the intimacy and the connection, and that's, I think, what so many of us want out of our sex lives. So this is part of expanding the definition of sex to just include intimacy around these things, you know, and talking about sex, you know, when there's enough resource and not dysregulation, can be pretty hot too, you know, there's this like, penetration into the other in a different way, of like, ooh, your your values, your desires, your needs, your juice, what gets you off? And so if we can stay in our own posture of, you know, there's so much embodiment having these conversations effectively, where, if, if I can stay, you know, one of the cues that I'll share with brave hearts is like ground in your back body. Take some breaths. Feel your back against a chair as you breathe. Bring your consciousness back, so that you have some anchoring in yourself. And if you're watching the video, like there's like something that's solid and secure, and I can still move forward and reach out and make contact with you. Put my hand on your leg and staying in my back body, versus if I'm here or if I'm way back here, there's some like level of like front and back balance to that, and I might be more on a tangent here, but really what this is is like, can I maintain myself enough Be In My Back Body, enough so my heart can be open to you and your desires, and I'm not taking it personally, because one thing that happens so much in these conversations is, you know, if someone's bringing a desire, their partner just collapses in shame, and it perpetuates this cycle of, I'm too much, my needs are too much, and my partner can't hold space for them, or I'm not enough for my partner. And so it's really like coming into just the, yeah, I'll say it again. It's, it's really like the CO regulation and, and what is required for a lot of this is attunement, attunement to the other person. Of like, oh, let's just take a breath here, you know. And maybe a word of affirmation, like, my intention is not to shame you like, I really want to connect with you like we're reiterating, we're validating, we're affirming. But part of what this makes this so effective is it reminds and is it's an active expression of secure attachment, of, hey, we're on the same team here. This isn't me versus you. This is I'm here for you, and I'm here for us, and I want, I want this for us, and that tends to support any of the abandonment trauma of, okay, if I don't do this for you, you're going to leave me. It's sort of like, Okay, we're here regardless, and even if, you know, we get to that, that can be something that we do together in a way that's going to honor our love and intimacy, not, you know, I think of, like, yeah, the expense of the, not at the expense of the the relationship itself,
Janelle Orion 43:16
I love that you brought in there, like, the secure attachment to be able to handle like this, like whatever is being said. So my The next question is, I'm guessing, like, not every conversation results in this is my even if you're even if you're co regulated and you're securely attached and you love each other, that you're going to have the same desire. So what do you suggest when couples do have a mismatch in desire? Yeah, it,
Megan 43:48
you know, it depends, because that's a whole process, you know, first I'll just name like a mismatch in desire is, like, pretty guaranteed, if we're with someone long enough just in, like in that we're never going to be perfectly attuned to, okay, my partner wants sex and I want it 100% of the time that they do, like, it's just not realistic. So there's some that's like, okay, it's just it's not distressing to the relationship. And then there's some that's typically when they show up and work with me where it's like, I don't want to have sex with you, maybe even at all, and I do. And so how do we work with that? And usually they're there with me because they want to close the gap. Some people just are like, no, there has to be a willingness to even participate in that, in that process of, you know, I want us to find intimacy on our terms and our way, even if it doesn't involve sex, yeah, but yeah, how I support clients when they're really wanting to work on these things is, you know, we're working with stress reduction, you know, not just because our. Sexuality or sex hormones cannot be produced at the same time as our stress hormones, so first and foremost, to support someone and maybe even contacting desire if they want. I've worked with people that are like, if I never had sex again, I could care less, and great, then it's not a problem for me. But if you're if you lack desire and you want it. We're gonna work with, we're gonna work with stress, the external factors that you can control, and also just your own capacity to regulate. A lot of times we're working with like practicing kindness towards our bodies, especially if they're changing as we age and our partners bodies, you know, as we spend more and more years together, and they're changing. And, you know, we're not as familiar with their body as it goes through a new life stage, whether it's perimenopause, menopause or just changes in, like, erectile tissue for for all sexes, you know. And so a lot of it involves, like, the compassion around that because, and the permission to just be a human that changes. Because sometimes people are like, Okay, well, I'm this way, and I have a belly roll and no one wants me anymore. Or, you know, I can't get an erection like I used to, or I I don't have as much vaginal wetness or whatever, and we start to, like, judge ourselves and shut that down. So I really want to bring that into the conversation, because it's so important, and I work with so many people on that, and not to, like, breeze through, but I think like, the last and like most crucial thing is, like, really expanding the definition of sex. And so if I have like, I'll use like, this split, because it's very common is I don't want sex, and I do want sex, and it this process, like, will vary a little bit if the couple is monogamous or non monogamous, but if, regardless, they're wanting to work on that with themselves, maybe that person doesn't currently want sex, but they want to step into that with their their partner. And it becomes like this practice that we talked about earlier, of like, first one of the things I do, actually, when it's that drastic of yes and no, is taking sex off the table. And usually people get so surprised by that they're like, Megan, that is the last thing I want. Usually, a person with more desire is like, kidding me, but you watch the other person soften, and that's what we want, ultimately. And it's not even about them cultivating this like ravenous desire. It's about them feeling safe to open. And so much of what happens when there's such a big split is intimacy dries out altogether. Is I'm afraid that if I hold your hand or we snuggle or we shower together, it's going to lead to the sex that I don't want to have. And so sometimes taking sex off the table, however the clients define it, I totally let them define it. And sometimes it's like just, you know, the sex that they describe. I always ask, like, tell me about the sex you don't want to have. And when they say it out loud, I'm like, Oh yeah, that makes sense to me based on what they're saying around they're not feeling pleasure out of it. So taking that off the table creates an opportunity for couples, again, to co create, to cultivate curiosity, to expand their repertoire of intimacy and relating that doesn't involve, like, exclusively penetration really is like what that comes down to. And I cannot tell you how many clients are like, flabbergasted when I'm like, sex doesn't have to equal penetration. That's just what we've been conditioned to believe and taught to believe. It can be anything you want it to be, and anything that feels good, and when we remove the pressure or the performance, we create more spaciousness and a softening and an opening for like what wants to come through us, and we can lean into it and build trust with the other person, and it can blossom into something that's uniquely theirs. And there are times where it's still not enough, and then that leads to bigger conversations. Typically, I don't make any suggestions, but like, Okay, what do we do here? Sometimes it's okay, we're going to open the relationship, or sometimes it's we're going to terminate the relationship, and at least it's from this place of, you know, like this embodied understanding and we've gone through the process of relating intimately with each other in an authentic way, versus Like this pressure of not getting what we want.
Janelle Orion 49:42
I am, kind
of, like awestruck, dumbstruck, just like everything you're sharing. Megan, I just feel, I actually feel so affirmed. And Andrea is my decision to, like, bring in experts to talk about this, because you're you. Mirroring my experience, quite literally in that last example, but bringing in so much, just like wisdom and acceptance and tools to how to navigate this and I just I feel profound gratitude for you and what you're doing in the world and how you're showing up, and it just makes me feel better to know that you're out there.
Megan 50:27
I'm letting that land. Oh, thank you so much So
Andrea Enright 50:32
Megan, I think like it's just so gratifying and validating and affirming to know that this is being given to couples, that you exist, that you're out there doing this with people, because we have Janelle And I really have been talking about this, really, this very thing in some of the same words, some of different words, for the last year or two, like, but we're all basing it on our own experience and our Just our stories and, like, our anecdotes and our learning and, and, but we're not trained therapists, right? And we're just like, putting it out there and say, Okay, well, this is, this is how we figured it out, and it's really messy and, and you're like, Yes, this is actually the way, but there's a way to get to it more clearly, more confidently, probably faster. And I'm just, I'm glad there is a little bit of sadness for me in that, oh, like, Yeah, I wish I would have known this a long time ago. I think I eventually got there in some in one of my relationships, like, in some ways, but it was such a very long and messy and painful path. And really this, like, just what you've said in the last 40 minutes is, like where we could have started. And so, yeah, it's just, it's, it's beautiful. So thank you so much. Yeah,
Megan 52:01
thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and the permission to show up. And what I would have said was, like, under resourced, but it's sort of like this perfect, like, perfectly mirrors. Like, what we've been talking about is like, you know, I don't need to control, like, how you guys and your audience wants to see me, or even, like, be in a performance mode, like, I can show up, like, raw and vulnerable and real, and it's like, it lands and and that's such medicine, too. And, yeah, I also wish I had this earlier than I did, but it's, like, all part of the sacred journey that I think makes the three of us as sexuality professionals, like so effective, because it's what did I not have and what did I need? What's missing from the field, you know, like even somatic therapy, to my earlier point, like, doesn't involve sexuality, and so much of sex therapy is still highly medicalized, and it's like, where's the spirit, where's the human, where's the embodiment of it all. So,
Janelle Orion 53:10
yeah, beautiful. So Megan, if someone wanted to work with you or reach out to you, how can they do that? Yeah,
Megan 53:17
so my website is sovereign self, dot love, my Instagram is at Sovereign self. Dot love, I don't really post too much, but my email is as well as Megan at Sovereign self. Dot love, so feel free to reach out. I'm not taking on new clients, typically, a few months of a waiting list. Like, again, this work is so so needed. Like, so needed. So if you're interested, get in touch sooner rather than later. And I'm always down for the conversations, like, it's, it's fun to be here and talk about these things. Well, thank
Janelle Orion 53:51
you so much for sharing your for your wisdom with a brave heart. So even if you can't see her in person, like, there is, like, like, download this. This episode. Save it, rate it, love it, and then just replay it again and again and again.
Yes, send it to your partner. Yeah, exactly. Thank you, Braveheart, thanks for listening. We love you. Bye, brave hearts, see you next week.
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