Based on their first In-Real-Life, Braveheart Conversations event at the Goddess Temple in Denver (Philly and Boston too!), Janelle and Andrea tackle questions from their audience. From boundaries and BDSM to sexual education and self-pleasure they share their experiences and insights. There’s a nod to Jamie Wheal’s “Recapture the Rapture” and Carolyn Elliott’s book “Existential Kink”, as well as Glennon Doyle’s podcast, We Can Do Hard Things. You’ll hear:
-How to get clarity on your true desires (Hint: its about permission)
-All about the Mind-Heart-Gut-Sex decision-making process
-How to handle hardcore jealousy in a polyamorous relationship
-There IS such a thing as adult sex education. No, really.
-Mic drop statements about boundaries (not the usual yadde yadda)
-Thoughts on how grief, healing and sexuality intersect. Eek!
TRANSCRIPT:
Andrea Enright 0:01
Andrea, hi friend, hi
Janelle Orion 0:02
friend. And
Andrea Enright 0:03
to the brave hearts listening out there. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea and
Janelle Orion 0:08
I'm Janelle.
Andrea Enright 0:08
Get ready for some real time relationship. Woo
Janelle Orion 0:11
and wisdom from the front lines with occasional tantrums and tears
Andrea Enright 0:15
about how breaking rules, blurring boundaries and tossing tradition can be catalysts for finding your truth.
Janelle Orion 0:20
Let's debunk the fairy tales we were told as children and create a new map for life. Yes, Disney can go fuck itself if you're seeking permission to choose your own path. Freedom is the new F word. People and want to feel less alone along the way,
Andrea Enright 0:34
we got you. Please note, this is our side of the story. Our partners and metamours have their own individual experiences, and we do not speak for them.
Janelle Orion 0:50
Hey, Andrea.
Andrea Enright 0:51
Hey Janelle,
Janelle Orion 0:52
Welcome to Season Two of permission to be human. We
Andrea Enright 0:56
are back. We're so happy to be back with our bravehearts. Yeah,
Janelle Orion 1:01
it's been a really needed and exciting month off. And one of the things that's so exciting is that we, while we were not recording podcasts, we were actually meeting with bravehearts in real life,
Andrea Enright 1:15
in real life. IRL, people like so excited about meeting bravehearts in person, hosting them here at the goddess temple,
Janelle Orion 1:24
and also on the road, I met some in Philadelphia as well as Boston, and these are called Braveheart conversations. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 1:32
and we're having women only, we're having men only, we're having co Ed. We're trying this out so we can interface in person with our brave hearts, and the first couple were a smashing success.
Janelle Orion 1:44
Yes, the other thing that you're noticing potentially is if you can see us, yeah, depending on how you're listening, actually, it could just be a real that you're catching, but we are going to start videoing ourselves as we're talking so you can see us in our just our everyday, fabulous clothes, whatever we feel like wearing, and
Andrea Enright 2:05
our radiance, right? And we're wearing spirit crowns. You might remember these from maybe some beginning episodes where we used to wear them, but we do love our spirit crowns. I feel elevated already.
Janelle Orion 2:18
Yes, the spirit crowns made by Sophie Howell are really an extension of our brand, because they anoint an energetic that's within us, that is called up and out, that helps us feel whatever more beautiful, more elevated, more radiant, more of a goddess, and which is how we want to move through the world? Yeah,
Andrea Enright 2:45
absolutely. I love it. And you can get your own@spiritcrowns.com
Janelle Orion 2:52
the other exciting thing that happened in our month off is that we hosted our very first Braveheart retreat, Braveheart retreat, and that was here at the goddess temple. And it was an intimate gathering. And we had a private chef. We had women fly in from all over. And it was a facilitated experience by me and by Andrea. It was a retreat that you learned a lot. You experienced magic. You were in the presence of other magical, incredible women who get to share each other's medicine with each other, just in the organic way of sitting in front of the fireplace, going for a walk, sleeping in and then maybe journaling or meditating in the Golden Temple, or spaciousness, so
Andrea Enright 3:38
much flow and spaciousness. So what are like the three or four topics that you talked about? So
Janelle Orion 3:43
we talked about the wheel of consent, which is foundational, in my opinion, to being able to ask for what you want. Yay. We talked about personal branding, yeah,
Andrea Enright 3:55
building your intuitive personal brand. So I sat with the brave hearts and did a lot of spotlight coaching about helping them bloom and broadcast their intuitive whispers and weaving that into their personal brand. So much fun in in the Golden Temple, yeah,
Janelle Orion 4:09
incredible. We had some fun too. We're not going to disclose everything that happened, of course, because part of it is in the mystery of what gets revealed, sure, and I would also say spirit accounts, we're featured. And we also talked about pleasure. And, you know, had conversations around, how is it that we can become more embodied in asking for what we want? And how did we ask for what we want is by knowing what we want. And how do we know what we want is by listening to our bodies. And so we worked through some tools and ways of how to listen to our bodies more. Yeah, absolutely. And
so in the spirit of Braveheart conversations, our new event and the Braveheart retreat, this episode is going to be all about Q and A that we got at that brave this Braveheart conversation. So let's give them an idea. What a Braveheart conversation night looks like. Yes,
it is two hours. And if they're in Denver, then you come to the goddess temple. We gather. Essentially, there's
a glitter ritual as you walk in, as you've heard us talk about, there are introductions, there's a meditation, yep. And
then there's the option we're gathering. We're sitting upstairs in the Golden Temple. And then we do a mini dyad workshop of where you're listening to one another. And then everyone gets to put a question in the Golden Bowl, in the Golden Bowl, and an anonymous question, and then we picked them out of the hat, Andrea and I answer them, but not in the answer of like, Oh, here's how the answer is to you know, we're not solving the world's problems or your problems, but we are giving our perspective on what the question is, and then we open it up. That was what was so beautiful, was that there was so much wisdom in the room that we were like, Oh, here's my perspective. And someone's like, Yeah, but what about this? And what about this? And we're like, oh my
Andrea Enright 6:04
gosh, amazing point, great point. And people came away from this describing their experience, their feeling at the end of the Braveheart conversation, as being content, sweet, peaceful, less alone. Hopeful, hopeful, okay, just beautiful endings to that two hour conversation. So yeah, really, it was really, it was so exciting just to witness all of these people being together, and really just a lot of human and feminine connection, right?
Janelle Orion 6:31
And I housed the one in Philadelphia was actually for men only. And of course, I was there. I identify as a female and as a woman, and it was so beautiful for me to feel welcomed into that space. It still felt like a men's circle, because and all I was doing was facilitating a space for them to actually be in communication with one another and to be asking questions of me, but really of each other. And one of the exciting things too, like the most exciting thing for me, was that they actually all asked for their contact information so that they could get together on their own after, you know, since I don't live there, Mm,
Andrea Enright 7:07
hmm, yeah. And I would say, you know, something you mentioned was that there's a lot of men's circles, and that's in Colorado, for sure, right? There's, that's a way that men have come together. I know that from, you know, my partner and different men, that I know there's even difference. I wasn't there. But like, so what would you say the difference is, in the men, the men conversation that with a female host versus a male host, right? Well, but I can't speak to it, right, because you've never been to a male one, right, right? But I guess in general, I mean, that is the difference. There's feminine energy being infused. That's all right, as opposed to male, right?
Janelle Orion 7:42
I think what really, at least, what they spoke to was that they were in a group of men who are willing to be vulnerable about questions that they had regarding their relationships, regarding pleasure and intimacy, and that they didn't have other men like that was what was so enlightening and hopeful for them, was that didn't matter that I was there or not, but they were in the presence of other men who were willing to have these conversations. Beautiful.
Andrea Enright 8:12
One more thing about the Braveheart conversations, they are currently not being recorded on the podcast, so don't think yes. Don't think that like you're coming here and then you're going to be like in the pod. In the podcast, and everyone's going to be hearing what you're saying. They are private, confidential experiences. I just want to clarify that, yes,
Janelle Orion 8:28
thank you. We the in real life is that we are gathering in real life, but this is not a podcast recording. No, what we're doing right now is we're bringing some of the questions to the podcast, but yes, the the Braveheart conversations are, are not recorded. Events correct,
Andrea Enright 8:44
not public. So what is our first first question? Okay,
Janelle Orion 8:50
the first question. And the question was, Where do you feel stuck?
Andrea Enright 8:54
Mm, hmm. And when one of these little notes said, How can I make self pleasure feel more pleasurable? And what did we say? We said a few things.
Janelle Orion 9:10
When was that not having a goal to like it? Oh, it has to be orgasm, right? Like self posture leads to orgasm. I think that's one of the big takeaways that I have from in sex. For me is, oh, I'm not shooting for orgasm. There's so much pleasure to be taken in the journey of discovery and slowness and without a destination in mind, yeah,
Andrea Enright 9:37
love that. The other thing we talked about was intentionality, really setting aside time, lighting a candle, being intentional about the time you are going to self pleasure, and thinking about the location and the time of day, and you know how you're feeling at that time, whether you're in a full stomach or an empty stomach, or maybe you've maybe you've had a drink, or maybe you've had a gummy or maybe you've. Had some water. Maybe you're sitting outside for a while before you go in. But really thinking about that, instead of rushing through it,
Janelle Orion 10:08
I would also say is, it doesn't have to be like that. Scheduling can actually help, right? Instead of waiting till, oh my gosh, I'm suddenly had this huge desire to self pleasure, because that might not come. It's actually not how it works for me, right? I'm not going through my day and think, oh my gosh, I can't wait to run into my bedroom and or run wherever in self pleasure. No, it's like, actually, I want to set it at the time this evening. I don't have plans. I'm going to be home. No one's going to be home, at the house at the same time, and I'm going to give myself a half an hour to set the stage, as you just said, like candles, dim lighting, take a few breaths and then, and then, you know, maybe it's 15 minutes of self pleasure with no destination in mind. But it doesn't matter whether I want to or not, like in the sense of I feel like it serves me. So if I put it on my calendar to do it then, regardless of however I feel in the beginning, I always feel better at the end. So this is so
Andrea Enright 11:07
beautiful. It's such an important point, because I think for a while, I had a hard time getting over the clinicality of even scheduled sex. Remember, we had those like gymnastics blow job evenings and where my daughter would go to gymnastics, and then, like, my husband, I would be like, Okay, it's time for our job. And at
Janelle Orion 11:27
the beginning, I
Andrea Enright 11:28
was resistant to this. I was like, No, I don't put on the calendar. Assisted with Google Calendar, but yeah, doing that really helps. And just like exercise, I would say, like, I don't, you know. I'm like, and I want to get up and run. But then after my Do I ever run and think I wish I hadn't run? Never, yes. So there is something to that scheduling
Janelle Orion 11:49
and so that maybe is like a big and one of the big takeaways here too, is that, you know, what makes self pleasure more pleasurable, taking away like, oh, I have to feel a certain way even before I start, is that make it more pleasurable by just identifying that it's a priority in your life, whether it's once a week, three times a week, whatever, whatever you want to start with, and just trust that, like exercise, it's going to be good for you. And just trust that, and then do that for a month. Yeah, see how that goes. Yeah, got it actually. I'm gonna take this my own advice. I'm gonna report back. I do because I have not had a self pleasure gig right now at all. Yeah. And I'm like,
Andrea Enright 12:31
When am I? Like,
Janelle Orion 12:33
yeah, it just falls off, kind of like meditation, right? In a way, probably because I feel like, oh, I don't really need it. But yet, I bet I do. If I'm just moving my life force energy, breathing, pleasuring, breathing, pleasuring, whether orgasm or not, that I know I'm going to feel better, like something else is going to come through exactly. So
Andrea Enright 12:53
another angle to this was if you feel pain, or if you feel like you can't get to the pleasure. And I think Chanel you spoke to the benefit of seeing a pelvic floor specialist who could really help you move some things around in that department. Yes,
Janelle Orion 13:07
if you have pain, if the question which was, what makes self pleasure more pleasurable is that actually, is there no pleasure at all because there's pain, then an invitation is to seek a pelvic floor specialist, because it could be that you have any number of things, but stuck, stuck energy, which is what my experience was, stuck energy, and then there was a numbness, right? There was not a lot of feeling. And
Andrea Enright 13:33
so that could be useful as well. And of course, like tools, lube always a nice bonus. If they work for me, for you,
Janelle Orion 13:39
Lou, I would say Lou, for sure, and the tools are optional. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 13:44
okay. And the other thing was that, you know, if self pleasure is not speaking to you right now, for some reason, I mean, I do think there's, I'm just gonna reiterate what you said that like, even if it's not speaking to you, give it a shot. But if it's just really not feeling like it's your thing, think about having pleasure in a different way. What else brings you pleasure? Is it licking frosting from your finger? Is it dancing? Is it hearing a weird kind of music? Is it the smell of a candle? Is it smelling flowers in your garden like something very simple that you know brings you pleasure, right? And so
Janelle Orion 14:20
maybe that could also be the practice of like, okay, you're gonna give yourself 15 minutes once a week to be very intentional about immersing yourself in pleasure, regardless of what that looks like.
Andrea Enright 14:31
Yeah, I love it. Me too. Okay, next one, all
Janelle Orion 14:36
right, I've got it. Setting boundaries, this is the question from the Braveheart. Setting boundaries is hard. Enforcing them is harder. How do I recognize when it is time to cut the cord with someone before my livelihood gets completely inverted?
Andrea Enright 14:52
So big, we'll just do the rest of the podcast on this. Yeah, so I. Yeah, there is this counterintuitive thing about there being freedom in boundaries. Because it really is somewhat counterintuitive. It was to me at first, I'm just like, No, I'm setting a boundary. I'm hurting someone else. I'm stopping myself. But when you set those boundaries, and I think this person is saying this, like she knows that, but she's like, What is that tipping point. And I think you, I want you to talk about this quote from Glennon Doyle, because I think that really is so that's the ultimate, like litmus test,
Janelle Orion 15:28
yes. So we already acknowledge that setting boundaries is hard. I'm telling someone not to do something, but now they've crossed the boundary, or they're coming close. They're pushing. Now you actually yes, they're pushing so now you have to enforce something, and that means that probably an interaction with someone else. And Glennon Doyle, of we can do hard things, podcast, was speaking to her daughter, and her daughter was like, But mom, I'm afraid to disappoint you. And gunnin's response to her daughter was, it is always, always, always my expectation that you will disappoint me before you disappoint yourself.
Andrea Enright 16:09
Oh, Mic drop. So I want to, like, think about that. And I really want to tell my daughter that too, although I think she is pretty good at it, yeah. And I'm wondering too, if there's a way to think about someone in your life who does have good boundaries, and witness and watch and observe them expressing their boundaries, I noticed it during the Braveheart retreat, when people were just like saying, Oh, this doesn't work for me. Oh, no, that's not enough time for me. No, I'd actually like milk in my coffee. I'd like the oat milk, right? Just like expressing, like, that's expressing what they want, but it's also saying, Oh, here's my boundary. So, really being and so just watching that was inspiring, because it gave me courage to set my own boundaries, too. And I've what I've found is that watching my daughter just not on purpose, but just inadvertently. So we read a piano recital we were finishing. We were with some other people who said, Oh, we'd love to come over, you know, and just hang out at your house. And, you know, both it was a relative, and both my husband and I were like, ah, like, we kind of need some down time. We didn't say that, though we were thinking it. We didn't want to disappoint this person. They were a relative. My daughter's in the backseat, and she's like, No, she's like, I need this downtime. Like we've been so busy, like, I only have two hours until this next thing starts, and my husband are looking at each other. She gets out of the car, goes over to the car with our relatives and said, I'm sorry I didn't hear the conversation. But she got back in the car and she's like, I told her now. I'm like, Okay,
Janelle Orion 17:44
wow, you're taking care of that, wow, wow, right? And so recognizing, and I think I want to, like call out here is that in protecting herself, right? And you mom and your husband, by extension, she was also protecting them, because no one was going to be on their best in their most radiant, right? So it was going to be draining for everybody, and that's no fun. And
Andrea Enright 18:12
I feel like too there is there's okay, there's a lot of power in the pause, which I forget constantly. I am just so in the habit of feeling like I have to answer things right away, and so it's okay to be like, you know, I'm not sure if that works for all of us. Let me go talk to the rest of my family and see and I'll be right back like I would never say that, and that would be such a great idea. And then I guess I want to also speak to the other part of this question, which says, How do I recognize when it is time to cut the cord with someone before my livelihood gets completely inverted? For me, the ultimate question in a relationship right now, who knows how it'll be next month or next year that you may be having challenges with someone in a relationship? And that doesn't necessarily mean it's time to cut the cord, right, because those challenges might be helping you in some way, or them in some way, or the relationship in some way, but ultimately, if your challenges are not leading to growth, then it's time to cut the cord. For me, that's that's what I come to for me,
Janelle Orion 19:19
yes, and I'm pausing because I'm like, Oh, I remember when I was like, Yeah, being in challenges that I was like, well, there has to be growth on the other side. And it was only in hindsight I'm like, maybe that was more of a challenge and growth, like the ratio was off. But I would also say the how I would answer the question is, or at least think about, do you not want to deal with them reacting to your boundaries? Because when you tell someone, here's my boundary, then they push it and then you establish it again, and then they react a certain way. Yeah. Right? Is, is like, oh, is, are you not wanting to set the boundary or enforce it, because you don't want to deal with their reaction
Andrea Enright 20:08
and, and this is something you pointed out to me a couple times in the past, or like, oh, yeah, I just don't want to deal with that, because that sounds like a hassle. It's a huge hassle, right? And that is ultimately selfish, right? And it's also selfish to be like, I have been in the situation where I'm like, No, I don't want to hurt them. No, I don't want to hurt them. I'm actually hurting them more by not setting the boundary. But that is counterintuitive sometimes in the moment, yeah?
Janelle Orion 20:30
And all of it hard, I think the other recognition is that discomfort is part of setting and enforcing boundaries. Yeah, very true. And so if the goal, if you're thinking, Oh, this is supposed to be easy, actually it's not. This isn't this isn't one of the light being human so annoying, yeah, setting boundaries is easy. So like also, can you increase your capacity for the discomfort of setting your own boundary so that the reward comes of freedom and radiance and taking care of yourself and being resourced, ultimately being
Andrea Enright 21:02
resourced totally. And let me just say that I like, wanted to have a temper tantrum about all of this. Sometimes I'm just like, discomfort leads to growth. I'm so tired of hearing that I'm so tired of listening to it like it's true and it gets Yes, it's hard. It's super hard. And
Janelle Orion 21:17
discerning when is the discomfort leading to growth? Is the thing you did say in the middle of that, because there's because there's some discomfort that is not growth oriented, yes, right? I had to learn. You've
Andrea Enright 21:27
had to learn. Yes, got it. Okay. Okay. So next question, I'm struggling to know if leaning into sexuality is harmful or healing during a time of healing and grief, and is the sexuality external validation, or can it be a healing connection?
Janelle Orion 21:46
Because these are anonymous questions, right? We don't know the backstory, so we're not assuming we know what's going on here. So some part of our response are actually just asking more questions so that someone could reflect a little bit more, because you don't have this backstory, right? And so for me, one of the questions when I heard this was, well, how does leaning into the sexuality make you feel
Andrea Enright 22:14
warm or numb, right? Like,
Janelle Orion 22:17
okay, so I'm here, I'm hearing, but you also in the are feeling grief, right? There's a healing period that you're in and grief, and so when you engage in sexuality with someone else, is how does it feel inside? Is it warm? Is it yummy? Is it like? Is it like taking a breath? Or is it filled with, fill in the blank self doubt, constriction, concern? Yeah,
Andrea Enright 22:48
great. And then, you know, is it really step back and say, is am I avoiding the feelings of pain and grief, or is this helping me process them?
Janelle Orion 22:56
Yes, right,
Andrea Enright 22:57
so that, and that's the just the ultimate question,
Janelle Orion 23:00
right? Is, is leaning into this other sexuality a distraction from actually processing and healing whatever hurt grief? Yeah,
Andrea Enright 23:10
exactly. And distraction also can lead to, you know, are you trying to just, like, shift your feelings onto someone else in some way, rather than, like, actually taking care of you, right? Are they just becoming a distraction? We're like, I'm gonna go take care of them instead of taking care of me,
Janelle Orion 23:26
right?
Andrea Enright 23:27
Just definitely, what happens, I think, in grief, is that it's happened to me, like, like, oh, I have to take care of them. Therefore, I'll just put my grief aside. Just keep putting my grief aside. Keep putting my grief aside. Yes, I
Janelle Orion 23:37
think you're bringing up a really good point, which is, I don't want to assume that sexuality at all, you know, in consent and when it's nourishing is bad, but what I really want to call out in this question is that feeling your grief, which might feel bad, is actually good, just Hard. So, yeah, yeah. Like processing grief is like we've had grief rituals over here, reflection on the other side of the goddess temple of grieving together, like actually getting together to intentionally grieve, might be another unexpected way to have moved through, yeah,
Andrea Enright 24:20
great point. And then yeah, and that's something to think about. The external validation, or something outside is usually driven by the ego, and so there tends to be more of an urgency about that, like, I gotta get out of this. I'm in a panicked state. I'm in an anxious state. God, Somebody save me, right? And that that typically is probably not the healthiest route, right? How healing is more related to being something and it's not hurried, it's not fast, it's not about an outcome. It's about the during and the process. So just things to keep in mind, too. Yeah, beautiful, yeah.
Janelle Orion 25:01
Okay, next question, I'm in a weeks old DS relationship. DS, by the way, is dominant submissive relationship. My D has another s, so my dominant, my Dom has another submissive. I've been triggered in my last relationship about not being monogamous, and I think I really want to be in a monogamous, long term relationship.
Andrea Enright 25:33
Okay, so I mean, a lot of questions we would probably ask. You know, this brave heart, you know, if you're not sure this is right. Consider what is drawing you into this relationship? Is it a true diet desire, or is it more of an existential kink?
Janelle Orion 25:51
Or do you want to feel desired? Although maybe we should go into what an existential kink
Andrea Enright 25:56
is. Yeah, um, I can really, I can describe this, but I don't know. I don't feel very confident about my description. Do you feel good about explain? Feel good about explaining
Janelle Orion 26:04
existential kink? There's a book. Think you read the whole book. I did, but I'm Oh, I since I didn't know. I don't have the author's name, but you can look up existential kink, and it's this idea that you there's something that you are drawn to, like a pattern, an addiction, right? That's not necessarily good for you, but is giving you a hit. And it's the hit that you're like, the feeling dopamine hit, or whatever that, yeah, really drawn to, but then you don't this is all subconscious, yeah?
Andrea Enright 26:36
And this feeling that you're seeking could be just a familiar feeling right, if you were abused in any way, growing up, verbally, physically, whatever, like you might even though that's not, I wasn't healthy, it is a state or a position that you're really accustomed to, really familiar with, and that feels like easy for you, or there's a comfort to it. Yes, a comfort. And so you have to be aware of, like, is there just like, you know, obviously, that's why it's called existential kink, that, like in the bedroom, it's like, oh, I want you to do this to me, this kind of bizarre thing. This is more like in life. What is it that you're drawn to? Oh, you're drawn to being dominated because your dad was dominant, and then suddenly you're in a dominant relationship that isn't serving you, but felt right because you were accustomed to that. So that is the existential kink. I would ask about, like, Is this about true desire, or is it an existential kink that you're moving toward?
Janelle Orion 27:29
And I would say that it's not because you want to be in a DS relationship. That's not where the existential kink is. The existential kink is actually that you're choosing to be in a relationship that's polyamorous, not monogamous, and you're naming that you want to be monogamous. So that's where the kink is. It's not
Andrea Enright 27:48
actually, yeah, agreed, absolutely. You do some piece of it, and then the question is, like, what is true for sure, for you? Like, what? What is the true statement you want to be in a monogamous, long term relationship? Why are you in this one when someone is clearly polyamorous? And
Janelle Orion 28:04
so, right? So is there a sense of like, Oh, you like the feeling of having attention put on you, and you'd rather have some attention that is incomplete than no attention could be one. Yeah, thing Absolutely. And do you also have some maybe, uh, whether it's defensiveness or like, Oh, is it not okay to be monogamous, right? Are you? Are you doubting yourself? Because maybe you're in a world where everyone else you know, the people you're around, feel that polyamorous is cool, or that, you know, and and just to throw out there, Andrea and I, while we're both, we're not advocates for poly. We actually want people to be know that they can choose monogamy. And so in your case, like, you're aware there's lots of other relationship formats you're really and are you like, oh, having to really own the fact that you're monogamous? Yeah. And sometimes discovering the trueness of yourself is also can be scary. That's really true.
Andrea Enright 29:04
Okay, thinking next question, sorry, next question. I'm thinking about the future, making plans for what I want, lack of clarity and what my true self wants. And I'm currently writing a keynote about the idea that purpose is amazing, but it's not the place to start. Permission is the place to start. Woo, woo. So because I, in a sense, purpose has become this commodity, this thing to do, this place to fail, this thing we can't quite get accomplished another thing on our list, and it can often lead us astray when we're listening to these other voices, right? So, oh, take a sound bath. Go to a mindfulness retreat like listen to Tim Ferriss. Start a paleo diet. Get up at six in the morning, start doing Pilates. Read this famous person's book, and those can be helpful. But. They're all coming from outside of you. And I really, I'm an advocate, because it was one of the things that changed my life the most was taking time to go within. And so what we really need to do is go within, like spend time truly alone, which is challenging for a lot of us. I get it like you have kids, you got partners, but even 20 minutes totally alone, not tracking like anything, it really gives you time to do that.
Janelle Orion 30:27
And I would, I'm gonna qualify alone, to me, means no input. So it's actually one of the things we I added that was part of the Braveheart retreat, which was that the expectation was each day that you were here, that you would take 15 minutes of a long time with no input, which no input means no music, no journaling, no certainly no phone, no phone, no reading, right? Because what you're trying to do is listen to the within. That's
Andrea Enright 30:57
really good. Yeah, I have to put that. I have to slip that in no outside input is really a big part of it. I've just been talking about, like, creating this ritual in the morning, which, you know, I've played with different rituals over the years, and so have you of just really being like the three C's. Now, I've decided about rituals is consistency, obviously, but that's kind of goes without saying, but it is so important compassion for yourself as you get dis uncomfortable by being alone, and then the clarity like and you have to have clarity without the input, so it's clear there's nothing else coming in. It's just you and that, I think that's really worked for me, yeah,
Janelle Orion 31:39
and what I'm hearing is that, like, it's not that you have you're going in with clarities. It's like, oh, I just know if I spend time alone, eventually clarity will come.
Andrea Enright 31:48
Yes, bingo. And when making a decision, you know, this person is thinking, oh, what plans do I make? How do I decide? And a decision making used to be, like, far more excruciating for me, and really doing a triple check, like, head, heart, body, like, Okay, how does this feel in my head from a logical perspective, from a Google Calendar perspective, how does my heart feel about this? What are my emotions? How am I feeling when I say this word, when I voice this idea, and then really in your body. Like, where is the tension? Is it in your legs? Is it in your stomach? Are you clenching? Like, where do you feel, and what do you feel when you ask this of yourself,
Janelle Orion 32:30
I would love to add, like, to fine tune that a little bit more to to take apart the body a little bit so it's head, heart, gut, okay. What are you feeling your stomach? Because there's so much in my stomach, in the stomach, and then sex. How does your sex feel? Okay, because that's where, like life force, energy like the womb, energy like that can be there. So does it. Is a spark of creativity coming from there. So if it's head, if it's heart, gut, gut, sex,
Andrea Enright 33:01
huh? Do you always like, do you feel like there's always a feeling in each of those places?
Janelle Orion 33:08
Maybe not, but I'm not sure. But I think if you ask yourself, you know, if you, if you allow yourself to ask the question, something will come true. And so if you're like, oh, there is no feeling, that's an answer. That's its own answer, yeah, got it. Okay, that makes sense, right? So it could be you're like, I don't know what my guts feeling. All I can do is hear my head, okay, I
Andrea Enright 33:28
have to come up with an acronym for that. Hhgs, okay, noted,
Janelle Orion 33:36
okay, oh yeah. So we're moving on to our our men, bravehearts? Yes, yes, yeah. I mean, I guess I don't know if that even matters. If you knew that all those questions were asked by women? Oh
Andrea Enright 33:48
no, I guess it doesn't. I was just like noticing that.
Janelle Orion 33:51
So what are some good tools and techniques to handle jealousy when your partner has other sex and or DOM sub partners, and I'm just gonna add in or other, like, you know, yeah, like other polyamorous part, yeah? Absolutely. So what's
that first one for you?
I've heard about this so much. Like, this is, like, an old one. This is vintage by now, vintage, yeah, but also real, yeah. So, yeah. My number one advice on this topic is, don't do QuickBooks when your partner is going out on their date, just literally, speaking, from experience, instead do something enjoyable,
right? Or, if you enjoy QuickBooks, great. But, um, yeah,
yeah, it was actually like, yeah, maybe, like, the reverse of that is that I was doing the thing that was the most painful while he was out. Yeah, that's so yeah. In fact, that's really, that's like, that I hadn't even thought about that is that I was like, intentionally martyring myself, yeah, yeah,
Andrea Enright 34:51
um, be proactive about managing the time. Like this is, this is something I wish I would have known in the beginning. Right? Like, like, when are they telling you you're going that they're going out. How much information do you want to know? How much information do they want to share? When are they coming home? When they come home, are they going to smell like that person? Have them put some cologne on? Are they going to sleep with you when they get home? Are they going to sleep on the couch? Are you going to talk about what happened that night? Are you going to talk about it in the morning? Like there's so many things that you can like, basically props that you can put around this event, that for me, helped eventually manage my jealousy and my anxiety when my husband was going out.
Janelle Orion 35:34
And what everything that Andrew just said is from like a wizened woman who's lived through this experience, right? So where this is this, this shortcut that she just gave you was like, re listen and write these things down, because these are just things like, you're you don't know, you don't know that these are questions to ask until you've lived them. Now, Andrew's lived them, and so now you can be like, Oh, are these? Do these matter to me or not I'm working with. I have a couple that I'm doing poly coaching with, and we're going through some of this stuff. They're just opening up their relationship for the first time and recognizing, okay, we're going to create a bunch of questions, what are like these kind of I don't even want to say they're safeguards, but we're trying to premeditate Where are, could be the sticking points as we venture out into this new territory, but then also recognizing that a sticking point. And, you know, in this case, like the questions that you had, may not be for them, but we don't think, but they are aware that there's going to be sticking points, so to look for them so that, like, this is a living experience. This is an experiment, rather, and that, okay, we found a sticking point on this one, and so now the next time we're going to do things a little bit differently, and they got to, they're navigating it so beautifully, because it's like, Oh, we didn't think about that. We had guests when I when one of them got home, so they couldn't talk right away. So okay, maybe we next time we think through that differently, yeah, and so, but you're not my point being you're not going to know all of the questions ahead of time, yeah, because everyone's different, and every family is different, every household is different, and and you're going to change your mind, you're going to be like, Oh, I'm
Andrea Enright 37:16
good with that, like, because linearly, you will be good with it. And then when it happens, your body will not be happy. That's how it happened for me. And so typically, like, my body had a hard time catching up with my head.
Janelle Orion 37:28
Beautiful. Yeah, yeah.
Andrea Enright 37:32
Also asking yourself, are you jealous of what they have? Like, do you want what they have? Do you want another partner that you're going and having sex with? Or are you feeling possessive of them? Like, there's two very different feelings, very different, very so, like, we spend a lot of time discerning the difference between these and and they were both present. Sometimes, you know, or neither one of them were present. Or I was like, oh, yeah, not actually jealous. I actually just want what he has and I don't have
Janelle Orion 38:02
it, yes. So that's so important, because in my case, right, like, oh, I want what he has, and I'm actively denying myself. It's not like I was being, being denied it by him. There was like I was, in a way, like I don't want to self, self sabotaging, but kind of right, like I was, there was a really, a deep part of me that, like, wanted what he had, but then I was like, No, it has to come from you, yeah? And,
Andrea Enright 38:30
you know, I'm thinking too, like this, this could be about anything, like maybe you're jealous about how much time he spends with or how much time your partner spends with their friends, right? Or playing golf, or exactly anymore, going shopping, whatever, right? Um, and really, it leads to which Janelle was saying, like, are you able to ask for what you want? Are you caught in a pattern of Not, not asking for what you want, because you really only ask for you want, when what you want when you know you can get it? Mm, hmm. One of my friends went through that. She's like, Oh, no, I did. There's no way I would ask for what I want unless I knew it was a sure thing, right?
Janelle Orion 39:01
And so then you're not even giving even giving the other person the opportunity to give it to you exactly, yeah, and really coming back to you. Then it's so if you are blaming this is a kind of a sign, I would say, with this is that if you're blaming the other person, then I invite you to look in the mirror and to be okay. So what is it that I'm not asking for or providing for myself, right? Because if you're if you're making it about the other person that they've done something to you, then chances are you're not standing up consciously or unconsciously for what
Andrea Enright 39:36
it is that you need. Yeah, or your boundaries aren't being held right? Potentially,
Janelle Orion 39:38
and you might not you in my journey, I recognized, oh, I was honoring my partner's boundaries, and I was not honoring my own right, right, like I was self abandoning my own boundaries.
Andrea Enright 39:52
Yeah,
Janelle Orion 39:54
did we answer the question, what are some good tools and techniques?
Andrea Enright 39:58
Yeah? Okay, no,
Janelle Orion 39:59
there's another one. Done? Oh, we did no, but actually a tool is that jealousy is part of the game, I think for most of us who are in relationships where other partners are there, and that knowing how to manage our emotions is a very important tool when we're swimming in these waters. And so there's emotional release tools, which we've talked about in another episode, and they're like, they're concrete, like there's seven tools you can use them to move the energy through your body. Because back to what I was just saying, if you're feeling jealous, it may not be. If there's energy, there's something there, but that's not necessarily your partner's fault, right? You have to look at yourself as well in this and acknowledge that your feelings are your responsibility.
Andrea Enright 40:45
Yeah, this is about owning your emotions. I did this for years. I'm just like, I'm crying and it's because of you. Like, just, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame. And that was, it's been a huge shift in our relationship. It's like, oh, I'm feeling a charge. Yes, I'm upset with you because of this or no, you know what? I'm feeling in charge, and it's not your fault. It's nothing to do with you, right? Even, even if it's if the charge came up because of them, of that absolutely, it's still not their fault. Is how you're responding, yes, and you can still be angry with them that that's fair, but yeah, their emotion is your emotion is your own. So that's huge. And then. And I also just encourage you to reframe the definition of choice. We we kind of think of choice for some reason, like we have to pick one thing, and what if that person was choosing both of you right? Like my husband is choosing me and someone else, and I have chosen him and someone else at times, and I I choose them both. This is just like, it's really a simple concept, but it's hard for us, because we just kind of feel like we want to be the only one chosen. It's been a hard thing to, yeah, to grasp and get over right?
Janelle Orion 41:51
And so I would say more so agreed with you. And from a foundational level, you really can only get there if you have these emotional release tools, if you're if you're looking at yourself versus blaming someone else. Like, these are some of the ways to get to the state of like, oh, can that there is enough love to go around.
Andrea Enright 42:09
Okay? Next question, how do we navigate the tension between physical experience for its own sake and the deepening richness of connection and emotion? Hmm? So my first thing comes up for me is, as long as there's kindness and consent, there's no need to feel shame about anything physical, just as simple as that. But this could be a long journey for you, depending on your past and what you've experienced. But I do think some things are about the physicality.
Janelle Orion 42:45
And as someone who believes in pleasure as a birthright, that pleasure looks lots of different ways some people and this comes back to some of the training that I've been through from kadeshka, which puts sexual desire on them, on the medicine wheel, and some people and Andrew, you and I are have different expressions of this, right? Like there is a physicality that you are drawn to, right, where people, like, squeeze your arms for you, even is something that that goes a pleasure thing in that, yes, yeah. And then for me, the connection, like an eye gazing for me is something that can really, like, melt me. Not to say that can't melt you, but that there's there's a difference, and there's no wrong or right, and so physicality is part of the experience that all of us have. I want to be like, yay. Physical is just as important as an emotional connection. Some of us need it tied together more. Some of it needs tied together less. Some of it just don't need it together at all.
Andrea Enright 43:49
So any people comes in different ways, right? Like physicality could be sex or it could be pushing, or could be laughing, right? Be shaking or lying together, many different things, right? And
Janelle Orion 43:57
so if you want physical experience and you want deepening richness of connection emotion, like, I believe, yes, you can have it all, but you might not have it all with the same person.
Andrea Enright 44:08
Very true. Next question,
Janelle Orion 44:09
can you describe a community that feels spiritually open this question when it came in, I was like, I'm not exactly sure how to answer this. Yeah. I
Andrea Enright 44:19
was just kind of like guessing with my answers here, like, like, what came to mind for me was radical acceptance, curiosity, no judgment, explanation of ritual. Thank
Janelle Orion 44:35
you for saying all that, because that reminded me of Jamie. We'll book recapture the rapture, which is, and one of his premises is, like, you know, how to how to spot a culty cult and how to be a non culty cult leader, which is, you know, are you in a place that is claiming spirituality, but yet they are at. Asking you to make decisions in moments of altered no altered state, an altered state. Or are they asking you to not listen to your inner whispers and instead say that those are wrong and that there's a group of people, one or a group of people who know more than you, all right? They know better than you do about yourself.
Andrea Enright 45:24
Yeah? That's for sure, a red flag, yeah? So I
Janelle Orion 45:29
would. So my answer is going to be read the book recapture the rest by Jamie. Will
Andrea Enright 45:35
I think setting a container with protocol. I don't know if that's open spiritually, necessarily, but it just feels like I can, like a community that I want to be a
Janelle Orion 45:45
part of, right? And I would say that that's actually in in this book, here's, here's, like the 10 things of, if your leader is doing these things, then this could be okay, if they're, if they're, or maybe if they're not doing these things. And these are red
Andrea Enright 45:59
flags, okay, I think you want to say one more thing about this, in that you personally this is just speaking for myself. I want a spiritually open community, but I don't want just a community that is open to everything and therefore has no identity. And this, I've been in a couple communities like this over the last, say, 10 to 15 years, and I thought, Oh, this is just, it's just open to everything. So everything's okay, but I don't know what they actually stand for. So to me, don't confuse an open identity or open spiritual experience with no identity or no spiritual experience. Like, it's okay to put a like to claim, stake a claim
Janelle Orion 46:46
something that feels true for you. Yes, exactly,
Andrea Enright 46:49
what was your sex education like? What were the influences, and where did you learn about it? Currently? Recently,
Janelle Orion 47:01
I'm so excited for this question,
Andrea Enright 47:03
do you like talking about sex ed?
Janelle Orion 47:05
I do because I feel that as a culture in America, we are so devoid of sex ed in education. Yeah, right. Like my like half semester of health when I was in seventh grade, right? Did? That's
Andrea Enright 47:19
what was supposed to prepare you for life, for life, right? So
Janelle Orion 47:22
I learned show that's terrible, yeah. So I've learned it a lot from ista International School of Temple Arts, where they're, you know, it's a retreat I've talked about many times, where I've learned about safer sex conversations. So what I'm gonna just do, the person who answered this question, actually is a sex ed facilitator. It was a site. He logged me out a softball hero, because I love knowing that there's other options. So we've talked about the safer sex conversation that is called stars, and the website for that is make time for the talk, and these conversations have helps my nervous system relax immensely before I have intimacy, so that I can experience more pleasure, right? We
Andrea Enright 48:10
also talked about the rbdsm at conversation. Again, that's rbdsm at that you can Google as well, yep,
Janelle Orion 48:18
and that is another acronym for the same type of safer sex conversation. And then my friend Sam told me about two adult sex ed programs. One is called our whole lives. The acronym there is owl, O, W, l, and it's a sex ed for adults that fosters informed values based responsible decision making and education super. And then the other one was, everyone deserves sex ed.com
Andrea Enright 48:53
amazing. Everyone deserves sex ed.com
Janelle Orion 48:55
Yeah, like whoa. And they some of the, I don't know which one, but one of them teaches at age appropriate, and one of them is teaching it for adults. So guess what? As adults, there's actually
Andrea Enright 49:05
programs for us. I think it's kind of funny that we've never talked about this before. I've never even asked, like, that's why I was like, it's so important. It really is, yeah, because I just think of it as, like, something for my teenage daughter, right, right? Which is kind of ridiculous, because, like, we got we got it when we were 15. Think how much our bodies and minds have changed since then,
Janelle Orion 49:22
yeah, and has cultures changed and all of it so, yeah, so there's actually resources amazing out there. Yeah, amazing. Okay, very cool.
Andrea Enright 49:32
Okay. Last question, how do I find ways to overcome previous baggage and trust issues and the insecurities resulting from them,
Janelle Orion 49:42
short answer, personal growth. And it's a journey towards self love. That's it, and we're done. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 49:50
super easy. Just like, do that. Just do that. Personal Growth, journey to self love, figure it out. Oh, my God, or is my friend my. And Mary says, I'm not doing that self love, intimacy, intimacy shit. That's another I have another friend who says that all the time too. She's like, Oh, this self love shit. Gotta tell you, it's totally the way to go. One thing I will say is that accepting that you may never put down this baggage and you were just gonna carry it differently and manage it better, and carry the backpack on your head or on your back. We
Janelle Orion 50:27
could just get the wheels fixed.
Keep tuning those wheels, keep greasing. Maybe, like, put on a scooter. Maybe it's gonna be on a bike, I don't know, but, like one of my friends, this magical friend I met at Folk Fest for like, three hours I haven't, never talked to again. Hopefully I'll see her next Folk Fest, and she's like, Oh no, I just carry, like, I carry my rocks, like the little like hobo, like them stick with a little handkerchief. It's like, I carry them around everywhere. It's like, I'm never putting them down. It's like, they're my rocks. She's like, I rearranged them. I look at them. I sometimes I take one out, sometimes I put it back in, but they're my rocks. And so she almost has, like, possession and ownership of them, and this has helped her go from them being baggage to them being empowering, right? Like saying, like, oh, I
actually had someone say this to me, which was so beautiful. I was like, Okay, well, what? What do you need? He's like, I have an abandonment wound. So if he's like, if we're gonna stop dating, I just ask that you let me know and that you don't ghost me. He's like, I'm not expecting you, I'm not expecting us to live to do this forever. He's like, I'm just letting you know that it'll really hurt me if you just ghost me. And I'm like, Oh, I I don't right, like that, like the pressure is off to like, oh my god, I have to love you forever. Instead, it was just like, oh yeah. Can I respect you as another human being? Absolutely,
Andrea Enright 51:52
mm hmm, beautiful. And I think that in addition, so just a little tactical idea is I find that my insecurities come up when I am saying something and I'm watching that person's facial expression, and I want them to look a certain way, and they look a different way, and I am then triggered into my insecurity or into my issues. And so a great way to do it is to sit back to back and talk about things, because then I'm not watching, I'm not expecting, I'm not looking for or being scared of a look that my dad had, or that my old, like an old friend, had, that caused this or whatever. That is. Nothing really about my dad. But, like, just Yeah, I think it's important, because we do, I do at least I take that in, and I make it part of me. When I see a particular expression, then I just add it to my insecurity. So, you know, sometimes that can help, but I love that this
Janelle Orion 52:52
is a really nice tool, right? So one the two tools that we're saying here is, like, acknowledge that you have them, it's okay, and we'll always have them. Like, it's this isn't, yeah, like personal growth and journey towards self love is we're not actually saying it's going towards enlighten, like the goal is enlightenment, sort of like the goal is an orgasm. It's like, oh, there is a journey along the way. We're gonna find tools. We're gonna find things. And so like, recognizing, oh yeah, part of my journey involves this, the baggage and the insecurities that whatever they are, that you have, and that, okay, how can I deal with them? One way is to sit back to back when having a conversation when we're talking about them, just so that I can focus on how I'm feeling in my own body, versus paying attention to the facial expressions of the person I'm sharing when it feels really vulnerable
Andrea Enright 53:38
to Yeah. And another like, little extension of that is, if it's better for you face them and be touching so that you're being comforted as they are talking. Yeah,
Janelle Orion 53:47
I'm a huge fan of being touched, like having, let me figure this, right?
Andrea Enright 53:54
Yeah? Like, it feels good to be held while you're having a difficult conversation. Yeah, true. Okay, this has been our brave first Braveheart Q and A hope you've enjoyed it. I just want to say, if you were interested in the Braveheart conversations at all, in Denver, maybe in Philly, maybe in Boston, New York, maybe New York.
Janelle Orion 54:12
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