Ever questioned who pays on a first date? Dread the conversations about it? Janelle and Andrea offer real time navigation and discovery (with plenty of awkwardness!) as they attempt to answer difficult questions about this and whether the issue of equal pay impacts this? No answers here--just an invitation for deeper discussion. There’s a nod to teenagers, Deadpool, Alison Armstrong’s book “The Queens Code”, and Polarity Coaches David Deida and Om Rupani. You’ll hear:
-A lot about dancing with the feminine and masculine
-Why the person who pays doesn’t actually have all the power
-That it all comes back to Communication. Capital C.
-How the safer sex and the money conversation are critical when dating
-The currency of presence, radiance & attention in a culture that dismisses it
-A reason to examine your own judgments about the masculine role
TRANSCRIPT:
Andrea Enright 0:01
Andrea, hi friend, hi
Janelle Orion 0:02
friend. And
Andrea Enright 0:03
to the brave hearts listening out there. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea and
Janelle Orion 0:08
I'm Janelle.
Andrea Enright 0:08
Get ready for some real time relationship. Woo
Janelle Orion 0:11
and wisdom from the front lines with occasional tantrums and tears
Andrea Enright 0:15
about how breaking rules, blurring boundaries and tossing tradition can be catalysts for finding your truth.
Janelle Orion 0:20
Let's debunk the fairy tales we were told as children and create a new map for life. Yes, Disney can go fuck itself if you're seeking permission to choose your own path. Freedom is the new F word. People and want to feel less alone along the way,
Andrea Enright 0:34
we got you. Please note, this is our side of the story. Our partners and metamours have their own individual experiences, and we do not speak for them.
Hi, Janelle, Hey, Andrea, we are here again with our second episode of season two. Yay, permission to be human. And what are we talking about
Janelle Orion 1:02
today, of men and money, uh huh, so let's just
Andrea Enright 1:06
take that out of money and men way better, because there is a for sure, because there's of Monsters and Men, right? Totally, you guys like searching it for a while. And I was like, no, no.
Janelle Orion 1:22
Okay, so do we start from the scratch in the beginning? No, let's
Andrea Enright 1:24
just keep it in okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:27
Just highlights are like, whatever
Andrea Enright 1:28
my like ridiculousness about the words
Janelle Orion 1:31
yes of money and men and just another like, interject, I have seen the movie Deadpool, and I caught that reference the other day when you brought it up, you totally did, yeah, and I know what the fourth wall is, and I totally did. You knew Deadpool, which is so surprising to me too, yes, yeah, okay, here we are back. I guess. Hi,
Andrea Enright 1:53
brave hearts. We're back of money and men. So recently, Janelle hosted a Braveheart retreat here at the goddess temple. My 14 year old daughter was babysitting a 16 month old who was here for the weekend with a participant who had flown in from Finland. And it was a special
Janelle Orion 2:15
occasion. Normally, children are not here. This is true. It was a very special occasion. And so what did my daughter ask you? So she had been out earlier, before she'd gotten to my house, and she's like, I was on, I don't know. Like, maybe it was a date. I'm not sure if it was the date, because he offered to pay. And so if he pays, does it make it a date? And I just, like, looked at her, and I was like, I don't know. This is, I don't know the answer this question. Have you talked to your mom about it? Like, what did she say? Like, I don't even know. So yeah, what we came to I was like, Well, do you want it to be a date, regardless of the paying and the not paying. Would you like to see him again? And would you like there to be a second date? So I started with that, right? And so she said, Yes. She also recognized that on this first date, she figured out that he was not as emotionally aware as she thought, and so she's like, Oh, I'd like to go for a second date, but I'm still kind of filling things out. Okay,
Andrea Enright 3:28
so were you implying them that if he paid, that there would be a second date? Or if you know, I
Janelle Orion 3:34
so I was taking away. I was like, let's just not even talk about the payment for the moment. I was like, what's in your heart? Do you want to see him again, or not as a date, okay? And then let's we can talk about, got
Andrea Enright 3:45
it this? Okay? So as you see, this comes up with all ages, yeah, but it's definitely like a conundrum I feel like we've run into lately. And ultimately, I think it stems from these two, these two sentences feminism tends to say, from my experience, women and men should get equal pay. A lot of feminists out there pay fighting for the idea that, come on, yes, women the same as men. Yes,
Janelle Orion 4:15
yeah, same, same job, same pay, right? Like,
Andrea Enright 4:19
of course I support this, and do I, as do you. And something that has been pointed out to me over time is that women are always going to be the ones that are pregnant. They are always going to be the ones that have the baby because of biology, and therefore that's always going to be throwing a wrench into their careers. So it feels like there needs to be some kind of allowance for the fact that that's never going to change, and that's always going to be something they're bumping into. They're not going to be able to put as much time in, because they are, in fact, becoming pregnant and birthing a child,
Janelle Orion 4:58
right? And. And this is like venturing into like this is not the topic for today. But I will also acknowledge that as a culture, if we value the fact of children, we value children and we value how do you have children in the world? Oh, they actually need to be birthed. And as you pointed out, women are the ones who birthing them. So then women are doing their contribution in a different way, and it's a different way. And so should payment not be based on like, oh, you because you didn't get pregnant? You should get paid more. That, to me, is a fucked up No. But
Andrea Enright 5:38
what I'm saying is that they're getting pregnant and they're having to take time off for that means they are going away, yes, and they are not present
Janelle Orion 5:45
at the job, and back to where I feel cultural changes should be. I actually think men should be able to take time off, right, for sure, when they're when there's a baby happening. So I want to that this, I feel like is a whole other conversation about what we're what we're talking about today. But I agree that I think that the way that as a culture, that how we has companies look at profits over people and Oh, everyone like people are having children like fact, all the time, in every company across the country, people are having children, and so can we honor that? Can we honor it for the women who are working there, and can we honor it for the men who are working there? And can we honor it for the people who are at home with the baby? So okay,
Andrea Enright 6:32
so we already got off on a little tangent. We're in the second sentence. But yes, appreciate what you said. Completely agree. So the two principles I'll just start again. Our feminism says women and men should get equal pay, just covered that some women are saying. And I see this being implied, or saying outright, I want the man to pay when we go out on a date. And I see a contradiction there. So this is basically the conundrum I've come into
Janelle Orion 7:02
and but just, I just want to also clarify, you're saying some women are saying, right? So do you think if men say I want to pay when we go out, then they're saying that women shouldn't be paid equal like I just want to I'm not
Andrea Enright 7:14
sure. Yeah, it's a great question, though, too. I don't know what men are saying. Enough. I mean, I only have a couple of samples, and I only have a couple samples from women too. But I definitely see a contradiction there in some because women are saying, well, I want the man to pay but then they're also a feminist saying, I want women to be paid the same amount, right?
Janelle Orion 7:33
However, a are women being paid the same amount as of today? No, we are still getting paid 71% of the dollar to what men are getting paid. So there's a goal here, but that's not the reality, no, but it's a case by case basis. Like
Andrea Enright 7:47
some women are making more, some making more than their husbands, right? Depends on who you're going out with. You might be making more than the guy, or the guy make more than you might be equal. So, so
Janelle Orion 7:56
is it even related to feminism, and men or women should be treated equal, or is it? Is it actually just how much money does each person have? And has nothing to do with feminism?
Andrea Enright 8:06
I would agree that it has, should. It should totally have to do with how much each person is making. But I'm hearing from these few women blindly, like, No, I want the man to pay. Like, that's the deal. Mm, hmm. So I think that's why I've personally experienced this, because I am in a marriage where I am sometimes dating and my husband is sometimes dating, and there is some kind of an expectation that he's going to pay for the date. And I'm like, Hey, like, you're not a single guy looking to get married. You have a family and a wife and a house like, why should you pay and this person you're dating also is not like, lesser than you, so why shouldn't it be equal?
Janelle Orion 8:52
And that person could have a partner and a child and all that
Andrea Enright 8:57
they could, they may, they may not, right? So, and then the same time I'm going out on these dates, I've done a ton of dating in the last couple of months, and my attitude on it is that when we go out, I feel it out. But because I'm having these coffee dates in the middle of the day, my my entire attitude is, either I don't get anything, or we each pay for ourselves. There's been a couple times when the guy has offered to pay and I have allowed him to pay. But in general, my rule of thumb is more just that it's equal, especially this early on in a first so you're talking so now, yeah, so we're talking about a first date, correct? Just talking about a first date, no, and maybe you wouldn't call it a date, like some
Janelle Orion 9:42
people wouldn't take a meeting, yeah? Call it an interview, interview, which I think is not such a bad
Andrea Enright 9:48
so I think ultimately what we're talking about here just says another arc is feminism and feminine. Yeah?
Janelle Orion 9:59
Yes on the one hand, except what I also said, I don't even know that it has to be related to feminism in the sense that women are not getting paid the same as men, right? So it's as a theory feminism say, like women are getting men are getting people. But here I'm looking at a reality. And so then it's really about, like, Okay, so two people are going out on a date. So what you're gonna see? Bravehearts? I feel, like, actually, very warm.
Andrea Enright 10:27
I'm like, sorry,
Janelle Orion 10:31
which is not prickly topic for us, yes. So we are acknowledging. We are, like, in this we are we're not coming to you with, Oh, we've got, like, we've went through something, we're on the other side, and we're reporting back. Not we are very much in the we're having a real time conversation between the two of us. This isn't clean, this isn't like, polished, yeah, exactly. And so there's, there's, I'm always hesitant when I don't know what it is I'm going to say, or how I'm going to feel, because in some of these I'm like, I don't know how I feel about this yet, so we're going to try our best. Yeah, this is my qualification of us being not that we're ever striving for perfection, but that we're acknowledging. This is a vulnerable conversation. It's messy for us to be sharing with publicly about Yeah, things.
Andrea Enright 11:21
Okay. So going back to what you said, and I keep hearing you say, well, you're talking about feminism. You're talking about equal pay, and that's not reality. So let's take that off the table for a minute. When I'm talking about feminism, in some ways now, I'm talking about a person feeling like, hey, I can pay for my own coffee. I don't need a guy to do it. So there's that attitude, then there's also, I want the guy to take care of me, have him pay. So these are the two, okay, these are the two attitudes. I can only speak from a female perspective. So maybe we should start with our expectations. So
this is what I have like getting back to the script. Okay, so, Janelle,
what is your expectation on a first coffee and then a continuing, like, uncontinuing dates? Okay?
Janelle Orion 12:07
So what I used to do was to split 5050, and to offer, like, I would say, the nuance was that if I really liked the guy, and he offered to pay and we were gonna go out again, then yeah, maybe there was a yes, but if I didn't really like the guy and he offered to pay I dig, no, it's okay, right? Yeah, because I was like, Oh, I'm not gonna see you again. So that's true, but that's at the end of a dinner. If you're having coffee, it's in the beginning and you don't know yet. Yeah, okay, but that's okay if you don't, because you're not doing that right now and it's a while back, but okay, got it. But I think that that general idea was like, if I already knew that I wasn't going to see them again, I was like, I'm not going to take advantage. I'm not going to just, like, try to get a free ride on this meal. Awesome. Okay? And this maybe ties back to the beginning of the conversation, which is about like, you know, how much are we each making, right, right, as we're going through the world, and, you know, I'm very clear that I'm in a lot of debt, and so, like, for me, paying for dates is not the priority that I am setting for myself, right? Because, and so I'm clear with the men that I'm going out with is that I'm asking them to pay up front. This isn't like, Oh, we're negotiating this in the moment, in the moment, okay, but I also don't do first coffee dates. I do zoom calls. Yeah, I
Andrea Enright 13:33
do those zoom calls too, but, but I would say my question to that, though, is, so then who's deciding what you're doing going to a Broadway show and staying in a hotel versus going on a hike, which is free. That
Janelle Orion 13:44
can be a conversation between us, but I'm not, yeah. I'm not saying, oh, I want you to pay, and this is what I want us to do. Got
Andrea Enright 13:52
it so it's a conversation, or they're deciding yes, you're saying upfront, yeah. And if they're like, oh, I want to go hike
Janelle Orion 13:58
a 14 year, and I'm like, Oh, I'm not available for seven hours, but I could do something for an hour. We could go for a hike in the park, right? So there's,
Andrea Enright 14:05
yeah, they're just talking about money versus non money so and so what is the language you use? Do you really say you're like, Hey, I'm in debt right now? Or hey, hey, I'm on a budget. Or, like, I'd love to know the like, how does that flow for you?
Janelle Orion 14:18
So I feel like what I have learned so much about myself is honoring the part of myself as masculine and honoring the part of myself that's in my feminine, and I'm actually in my masculine a lot in terms of figuring out how to navigate my career, The Goddess temple, the podcast, like, like, there's a lot of structure in my life, for sure. So for dating, for me, I'm choosing to say this is one of the areas that I don't want to be, quote, unquote, in charge. I'm in my in my understanding about, oh, can I lead with my feminine in relation? Down to the masculine, instead of leading with my masculine, beautiful. And so that's actually what I tell them, that this is what I'm practicing. And one of my like, maybe favorite things was like, or examples of this on a date that I went on, and it was, this was a coffee date, although we had a zoom call first, we went on a coffee date. And we went at a coffee shop. We were in New York. I had my luggage with me, and the coffee shop was, like, too crowded. There was no tables. So like, Okay, let's go find a bar to go sit at. And I had my bags. And he was like, Oh, can I carry them for you? And I was like, No, I got it. Right, because I can carry my bags. I'm carrying them all around the freaking country, right? And then I was like, oh, no, wait, in my set in my mind, yeah. I was like, wait, wait, I'm leading. I am leading with my feminine so then I said, Oh, wait, sorry, excuse me. I changed my mind. Yes, I would love for you to carry my backs, so he rolls my rolly bags across the East Village, through, like, over the potholes and through the cobblestones like three blocks. And the whole time I am, like, smiling, beaming, ear to ear, because I'm in my long coat. I'm not sweating, I'm not struggling. And I was like, I remembered. I remembered to allow him to help me. And then, as a result, we got to the bar, and I was like, Oh my gosh, thank you so much. That was so great. And I told him what I was doing,
Andrea Enright 16:30
that's so, yeah, that's so great. High five.
Janelle Orion 16:32
Thank you, yeah. So in that way, that was like, you, yes, you can take care of me. He felt so great because I was like, this is the best, right? And I remembered that I didn't have to do it all myself. That was actually the highlight of the day. So I
Andrea Enright 16:47
love it, okay? So, and I just so I'm going to share a little bit about me, and then I have a question for you. So, same, right? So, like I'm also saying up front, look, I'm typically in my masculine. I want to be in my feminine. I want you to plan the date I want you to pick me up. I don't talk about payment as much. I'm just like, I want you to do all of this. And I will say, Look, I don't have a lot of extra money. Like, I can't go, like, out to dinner and then go to a concert or and that just feels so good. I think I'm so excited to say it, yeah, they're just like, it is so great to be that specific. And I have to say people respond, they're just like, great. Like, they're not annoyed, they're so happy, right? Because then we know what we want exactly,
Janelle Orion 17:28
and, yeah, you're just being transparent. Yeah, I'm like, Yeah, I
Andrea Enright 17:33
think it's a chance. I'm just, I'm projecting, like, maybe it's a chance for them to be in their masculine I think it's totally true. But I have to, like, I don't know, because I'm not the guy,
Janelle Orion 17:42
right? But I think that that I would say. And so we're gonna, I'm gonna bring up some books of resources. Allison Armstrong, who is a teacher, writer, author, coach, on men, women relating, and talks about, what are some of the qualities of the masculine? So, not saying men, but of the masculine, yeah, that. But then if men who are wanting to lead in their masculine, these are qualities that apply to them, and we don't, in our culture let them do that very much, because we in when we are women in our masculine, we are taking this away totally like, what am I here for? Yeah, it could be a feeling, again, a projection. So, yeah, what I am experimenting with, and this from my teachers and how, what I what feels important to me, is, how can I have more fulfilling relationships? That's actually what I'm it's your goal, my goal. And so how do I have more fulfilling relationships with a man who's in his masculine Well, I was married to one, and me leading with my masculine was not the most useful and successful approach, so I know that tried it. So now I'm trying something different, also an experiment. It still feels new. I'm having to remember. I'm having to practice, but I just did, but I'm set. What I am realizing is that, oh, but this does feel easier, and it's but it is, and this is what I think is brilliant about what you did. We don't live in a culture where all this is assumed. And I'm not saying it should be assumed. I'm letting the person know, hey, this is what I'm trying to do. This is what I would like you are in choice. You get to choose to meet me here or not, right?
Andrea Enright 19:22
And, yeah, it may not be their thing. Nice, fine, that's totally fine. But
Janelle Orion 19:26
then I'm saying, Hey, I'm trying to, like, allow men to take care of me, because I want you to feel good. And I want to feel good, yeah? And
Andrea Enright 19:36
I would say that only if they want to leave that that right. Like, so, like, yeah, yeah. Like, it has to be just you. It's like, you want them to feel good, but that might not be their thing. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, right?
Janelle Orion 19:47
What? So what I'm saying, I want them to feel good. Here's what I'm offering. If they don't feel good in that, then that's, I'm not saying you have to do it this way, yeah, okay. But, and I also just want to say that it is um. And I'm talking about dating, I'm not thinking that I'm going to push my masculine aside and never be in my masculine again. For sure, I'm honoring my masculine. I'm just choosing when I want to lead with it. When is it appropriate, when is it useful? I just ran a retreat. I needed to be in my masculine a whole bunch of the time, and then I needed then I danced into my feminine at different times. I was in my flow, and then it came back. Then it came back to my masculine. What I'm practicing is on a date, how often and for how long can I stay in my feminine?
Andrea Enright 20:29
Okay, interesting. So I wrote a haiku when I did that 100 days of Haiku for me personally, was and here, here's how it went. I think it's just when I lead with my feminine, my masculine finds a way. And I know that's true of me, because I'm my default is masculine. I'm going, I'm leading, I'm in charge, I'm making lists, I'm getting shit done. And if I do that, I often forget about my feminine, but if I lead with my feminine, my masculine, it's still gonna happen, because I'm not gonna let things drop. I'm not gonna not get shit done. This is my personality. Everyone is different. So my question to you, I think that was all really beautiful. And my question to you is, how would you feel if a guy said to you, to be clear, I'm on a budget right now, so I'd like to split this event. 5050, how would you feel and what would you think?
Janelle Orion 21:30
Okay, so the this is good. I wrote an answer to this, and then I was like, Yeah, but so now, but in this moment, like, what feels really clear for me is like, Oh, am I choosing to prioritize that? So now I'm just like, Okay, let me look at the event. Do I want to go to this event and spend x amount of dollars? Great, and then I could just say, No, it's not. I'm not interested in spending that much money. Now, the counter would be, if you really want to go and you want to pay for me, I would consider it. But I'm actually happy not going at all. I don't have the budget for that. Okay,
Andrea Enright 21:59
great. How would you feel about the guy, like, is there anything that would shift if he said, and this is I'm just talking from our perspective and how we're viewing men who are our primary partners right now, that gender, if he said that, would it change The way that you thought about him?
Janelle Orion 22:22
I'm not sure, but I would say, because ultimately, it's the question is fascinating to me, because it's helping me realize that I'm in a time where I'm learning to receive and to being devotion, to my radiance. And as I mentioned, I'm currently in a lot of debt, and dating is a fun way for me to get nourished and to be taken care of. So what I'm offering in exchange is my loving presence, my touch, my playfulness, my radiance, my devotion. So it's actually not about the guy. It's about, this is what I want. And so if the guy can provide those feelings in me in some form, and it does it, whatever way it looks, then great. But if it's not, then it's like, okay, it's fine. It's not here. I'm gonna move on.
Andrea Enright 23:20
Okay, so, like, here I just heard you a great job of just bringing it back to yourself, like not judging the guy, not using that money or non money thing to form a judgment about him, right? Just being like, Oh, no. How does it make me feel? Right? Because
Janelle Orion 23:34
this is what I'm looking for right now.
Andrea Enright 23:37
Okay, got it so. But
Janelle Orion 23:39
the one thing then, because that's what I'm looking for, right? It is falling into, and like, you know, we'll talk about dates that I've been on, is that when I say, Oh, this is what I want. Like, if I'm like, Oh, I love a bathtub, and then the guy is responding with, oh, what's your favorite hotel with bathtubs? I'm like, I don't know. I haven't had the money to spend on the hotel with bathtub. Let me know if you have one that you suggest, right? Then we're meeting in the same, yeah, desires and places. So I will say that I'm not saying money isn't a factor in all of it, yeah, but it's, it is like, Oh, do if they were like, I guess here's a perfectly, a better example if, if the connection is there's like, I don't have a lot of money to spend, but what I'd love to do is come to your house and make you dinner and rub your feet and, you know, just devote on you it for this for, you know, two hours. Then I'm like, oh, that's meeting my needs. It's not my need, isn't I have to go someplace expensive, yeah, it's that I want to feel nourished and in my radius. Okay, that's really clear.
Andrea Enright 24:49
I think you had some thoughts related to this sub DOM on this, because when we discussed this originally, I know month or two ago, was. That I felt like there was a little bit of a power dynamic established by whoever paid. So, oh, the guy paid, and so now he's in charge, or he has a little bit of power over me. And I do feel that a little I'm not so worried about it, but it's there. And I think particularly with someone I don't know. I'm like, Oh, I don't want to owe him anything, so I don't want him to pay if I don't know him well. But I think this is potentially something that's slightly counter intuitive, or something misunderstood about BDSM or subdom, because I tend, you tend to think of, okay, well, the person who's dominant is in charge, and they're the one who's paying, and now they have a power dynamic over me.
Janelle Orion 25:45
So I hear you Yeah, and I very strongly disagree,
Andrea Enright 25:48
yeah, right, so I get that, so yeah, kind of almost being devil's advocate there, yes,
Janelle Orion 25:54
yeah. So I hear you saying that whoever's if someone's paying and they're in charge. So just as a reminder for the brave hearts, and we've talked about it, and this in the BDSM episode that I had before I took my pro DOM course, had the idea there was a hierarchy between a DOM and a sub, and the DOM was above the sub. And what I learned in my teachings with Omar pani and Lauren Harkness was that, no, in fact, the DOM and the sub are equals, because the DOM can't be Dom If there's no sub, and the sub can't be a sub without a DOM. And the way that the roles are being played out is that the sub is asking for what they want and the DOM is agreeing to do what the sub wants within the Dom's boundaries, and both get to be in pleasure, but the sub is the one who's actually setting the scene, for example, on the date that I went on last week, this was a second date, and we had had this conversation. So there was the understanding that I had communicated I would like him to plan, and that I would like to feel taken care of. He also doesn't live in my city, so I was coming in for the weekend, and so we had established we had an understanding of, like, I'm coming in for a couple of days. He actually had some other partners. He has kids, and so this wasn't like, Oh, we're I'm looking for a longer term thing? Yeah, I
Andrea Enright 27:22
think that's important to what you're looking for there, right? How that relates to money
Janelle Orion 27:26
and on this is the bathtub guy. So he knew that, he knew that I liked bathtubs, and he likes bathtubs, right? This wasn't just about me. This was just, it was also about him. And so he was like, Great, let's find a hotel in my city and that has a bathtub. And his suggestion, I just said on the on the profile, that I like this, right? So this is, this is a mutuality, but that, you know, he asked me what type of food I liked. He chose the restaurant, the hotel and the experience that fit his budget.
Andrea Enright 28:06
Yeah, great. Okay, so this feels a little bit like the rbdsm conversation that we've mentioned, or the stars conversation, which is the safer sex is actually centered relationship, boundaries, desires, sexual health, meaning aftercare. And there's a whole episode on that, but this is a conversation to have in the beginning. I just want to stress that, but like, this is just as important as the rbdsm conversation is before you. I think become intimate is having this conversation up front. And people are not accustomed to doing it, and it's a little bit uncomfortable, right? But they really encourage it. And
Janelle Orion 28:39
we had this conversation, because I was out of town, we had this conversation. First he planned the date, and then when he when we got together in person, then we had the rbdsm conversation. So the assumption wasn't that we didn't know what the intimacy was going to look like, even though we were renting a hotel room. Yeah, yeah, sounds good. So in the date that I was on, he paid for everything, and I was asking for what I wanted. He was creating it that an experience that fit his budget, and I did not put any demands on what that had to be. And I was in my like radiance and my joy and my excitement and my appreciation and my gratitude, and he felt so good. Words of affirmation. He felt it into, I really feel like, the way that I see it is that we both contributed, right, like I contributed joy and enthusiasm and yeah and appreciation, and he created the container for that to happen. And both of us got to feel really good. Okay,
Andrea Enright 29:42
great. Okay, so I want to go back to this conversation you have before, you know, initially. And I just think that there is so much cultural conditioning for a guy, for all of us, but for a guy. Okay, and I think it would be very challenging. I'm thinking of just a few of the men that I just that I know. I mean, I can think of lots of I think it would be very challenging for them to say, I'm on a budget right now, and I have to go 5050, I think that is the hurt that maybe one of the biggest hurdles. And I'm speaking for a guy, and I'm not a guy, but this is just like information I've gotten from a couple guys I know my husband's like, no, that's not easy to say. Like, there's an expectation in our society, like, of guys paying Yeah, and my husband's been through it a lot, and it's so fucking annoying to me because and I end up being like, fucking women so annoying, like they're expecting him to pay no discussion, and that's it. That's there. And so naturally, he's just like, I don't want to be unmasculine by saying I don't want to put words in his mouth, but like, I can see a guy saying I don't want to tell them I can't afford that. I'm not paying for their dinner. Um, so that's, I think that's the really, that maybe that's one of the bigger conundrums that I'm seeing. I feel that, yeah, that's just, like, obviously, like something, I
Janelle Orion 31:09
was like, Oh yeah, feels like a punch in the stomach. And just highlighting what kind of, what we're talking about is that there's not even a standard, right? There's just a lot of confusion. Like, this is so muddy by what, like, what does this woman think versus this man thing? What is this woman thing anywhere on the spectrum? What if it's a same sex? What's happening there, right? So, like, what if you're non binary? There's, there's, there's a lot of choices here. And so I think on a very simple term for me, it comes back to communication of, what is it that I want, and I'm definitely like everything else. I don't think any of this is
easy,
but if I just I think your guys's situation is really unique. Like, not, it's not that it's super unique, but, like, can it be received, say by someone you know you're saying, Hey, I've got a wife, I've got a child, or I've got a husband, I've got a house, right? Like I have other people. This isn't my budget. This is a family budget, right? Yeah. So this is what's unique about polyamory, in that not everyone was having to navigate. But back to what I was saying, is that, oh, this is what I would like if I was saying this to a man, but like, another date that I went out on, right? Like, we went to a cute little restaurant in the city, right? I don't drink. I think that, like, the entrees were $20 and, like, I don't like I don't like the money in saying that in comparison to, like, here's a really expensive one. But I let him choose the restaurant that fit his budget. He actually picked up like, a dessert to take out some, like, before he got here, so that we could have that at home, at home, right? And I felt taken care of. I so appreciated he did the planning. And I wasn't like, I'm not like, oh, that date wasn't that man was less than this man, right? Okay, so I do have recognized that's true in my feelings. But communication, this is what I think, like men and women relating is so much about communication, which is, these are the skills we're not taught. Which is why I'm such a huge advocate for it, yeah. Which is, this is my circumstance you guys have. This is, you're like, my circumstance. Someone looks at me, they don't think that I'm in debt. Like, I have this, like, huge house. I just got a temple, right? And I'm like, and this is what I'm prioritizing, because I am, and I have to be vulnerable and say that,
Andrea Enright 33:43
yeah. And I think what, really, what this is just coming back to again and again, is something we've discussed on many podcasts, is Stop the fucking mind reading like this is just, we all just like, well, it's just so much like, nicer if we just don't mention that, and we just mind read. And that's just like, such a myth, but it's an old default that is sometimes really hard to get around, or like to not just default into, right? Yeah, just having the courage to say up front on that Zoom call before things anything gets awkward before and before you're at the counter, deciding before you're at the check comes and just plan ahead,
Janelle Orion 34:20
right? In a way, I think what we're what we're saying is, yeah, safer sex conversations like the ones we've talked about, are awkward, and they're so worth it. And what we're advocating on here is actually having a conversation about money is awkward and so worth it. Yeah, and there's
Andrea Enright 34:39
like, the beautiful so meta thing is that I went on a date a couple weeks ago with this great guy, and second date, and so, of course, I told him about this podcast episode that we're doing. So now it's just
Janelle Orion 34:53
totally out there, right? He's, he's like, Oh
Andrea Enright 34:56
well, you know, I guess the money's not gonna thing. He's like, I get it. He's like, you know, I. He's like, I got dinner, no problem,
Janelle Orion 35:03
right? And so it i We broke
Andrea Enright 35:05
in the ice, and it's not awkward anymore, because I said, there is the hunt of this conundrum, and it's a little bit there's something off about it. And
Janelle Orion 35:13
what I'm hearing is he said, great, I've got dinner, no problem. And he could have said, That's so great, I would love to go 5050, he
Andrea Enright 35:19
could have been like, great, no problem, yes, right, but I just think that it eliminated the awkwardness from the beginning, and now it's not an issue. Oh my gosh.
Janelle Orion 35:27
We've got a podcast in our back pocket that we get to bring our face. I know it is so true.
Andrea Enright 35:35
Yeah, so this is, this is a big topic, and I'd be very curious to see what bravehearts are thinking about this. Yeah.
Janelle Orion 35:43
And I was there's one other thing is that what I also do believe is that there are women who out there who are just looking for a man's wallet for sure. Yeah. And I would imagine if I was a man, and that feels like fucking shit, yep, right. So I'm also acknowledging that that's now, I'm not saying, oh, man, is supposed to be paying and like, there's no give and take. I think what I what I wanted to call out is I really believe I gave back to both of the men who paid for my dates in a different way. And so acknowledging that there is an energetic exchange, there's a currency exchange, and there's an energetic exchange that are of equal value, but in our culture, we don't talk about the part that's not the money part. And what my training and my education has taught me is that actually what a man feels is worth a lot of money is to be in the presence of a joyful, radiant, appreciative woman, and that's who I'm trying to be, because that feels really good to me. And those are attributes that I didn't always acknowledge for myself ahead value, right? That's a huge shift. Like, that's really where the shift is that I'm like, Oh, my joy and my radiance is actually worth a fucking lot of money. Do
Andrea Enright 37:13
you hear that? Bravehearts say that, again,
Janelle Orion 37:16
my joy and my radiance is worth a fucking lot of money, yeah, to be in the presence, yeah, of my joy for me, yours
Andrea Enright 37:23
is too. Thank you. We all give different ways and have different contributions, right? Yeah, I think this is really something I've had to practice about too, and be like, Oh, no, I'm bringing this. Like, that's worth. A lot of value too. Instead of just thinking about, Oh, I didn't bring the appetizer, or I didn't bring the money, or, you know, something that it can touch, or that tangible, right? But some people are bringing an energy or a presence or conversation or facilitation,
Janelle Orion 37:53
right, or esthetic or a beauty in an outfit, right? Like something that changes the energy of a room, yeah? Or flowers or food, like, yeah, exactly. And I think that my journey right, and we both talked about, we both, like, leading with our masculine right, wasn't only leading with it. It was an honoring of I only valued, and this is what I think culturally we're in, is that, and this is what the patriarchy is to me, is that, oh, it's not only is it an demanding that the mask, whatever is a masculine attribute, right, is what we're aspiring towards, we're demeaning the feminine attributes, where as so for me, what I had to unlearn for myself is I'm not Trying to demean my masculine attributes, but I'm just elevating and raising my the feminine to be equal and different. So this whole journey is me respecting all parts of myself and the part of myself that is my joy and my radiance, and saying, oh, that's actually really has a lot of value in this culture, even though I had been trained to not think so
Andrea Enright 39:05
interesting. Keep thinking of more things to say, like, that's beautiful, and there's like a mic drop there, and I'm reminded of, there's a quote by Esther Perel, and I'm not going to get it exactly right, but it is that when things become one and glom onto each other, there's no there's no attraction or mystery, and so things have to be separate for intimacy and sex to happen. And it is a paradox, right? Because you're coming together as one, like you kind of think of and on a date, or, you know, when you're having sex or when you're loving each other, but ultimately they have to be different, and this is what I've learned about that's why the feminine and masculine are such these great balances. If you're both in the masculine, they're both together, and you're not actually noticing. Or seeing the other. But when you're different, you're like, Oh, you're backing up like, Oh, I see this is different than me.
Janelle Orion 40:05
I'm curious, and I would add polarity. Is the term like the polarity the difference, you know, an opposites attract, that phrase, right? It is the tension between the difference and the polarity of the of the masculine, the feminine, that brings the sparks together.
Andrea Enright 40:24
Right? Polarity seems so extreme, though, like they have to be like, at such opposite ends of the spectrum. Do you know what I mean? Or, or is that your point?
Janelle Orion 40:31
That is the point, okay, that they're like, that's so different. I think you're right. Yeah. And so again, back to Allison Armstrong and Connie and David. Data is that, and they're both beautiful. They're equal in their difference. Like, I'm not. It's not like, oh, we want to be the same. We want to be different. Because the value, the excitement, the tension, the desire, the sparks happen because they're different when they come together, yeah,
Andrea Enright 41:01
and this is part of why marriages struggle, I think, more and more and they continue to, because so many of our tasks have become like, you know, the woman is mowing the lawn and the man is changing the diaper, which, of course, is great and helps run a household really well. But as our identities merge together, we lose that. Yeah, that is definitely something that I've seen happen
Janelle Orion 41:25
and then, and I would say that, that this isn't like Oh, in all aspects of my life. We want this merging. It's like, oh, as a woman, if I'm an executive, right, I need to be my masculine most likely i I'm an advocate for also, like, feminine leadership in executive positions, which isn't also culturally like established yet, but nonetheless, right, there's a lot of holding decision making like to be successful in big companies. Great. This has nothing to do with, oh, women shouldn't be doing that. This is all I get. That's what I'm doing. And it'd be really nice if I came home and got to leave that at the door, the Queen's code by Alison Armstrong talks about this, and I'm gonna just like, leave that at the door, and I can I come home and be my feminine. So I came, and I think this is the part that we really haven't stated, is because when I'm leading with my feminine, I feel nourished and recharged and resourced, and that feels that's also not obvious and intuitive. And so then, Oh, I get it's like, I'm parched, I'm getting this, like, sip of this elixir that's like moving through my body. And then I'm like, oh, okay, great, now I can go to work the next day and make 1000 more decisions. Mm, hmm. You so it's not about, oh, we have to be in one or the other. It's like, oh, no, we're dancing through life. For sure,
Andrea Enright 42:50
in both, we're leaving them both through our lives.
Janelle Orion 42:54
Okay, that was good. Did we do it?
Andrea Enright 42:56
Well done. All right. So that
Janelle Orion 42:59
was a conversation we hope, we hope that this is sparking a conversation, right? This isn't like, here's answers. This is us. Like, hey, this is a lie for us. Yeah, what's alive for you with it?
Andrea Enright 43:09
Yeah. Come together in your women's groups and talk about this. Like, what groups and what are the opinions you have? Like, how debate it. Get into juicy discussions, ask questions, examine your own biases on it, yeah, it's an invitation, yeah.
Janelle Orion 43:24
And it also leads into that, something that Angie and I are going to be starting, you know, with the Braveheart community, is, you know, creating questions maybe for our subscribers who are like, Okay, this is what we talked about. Here's three questions. Get together with your permission, pod of friends who are interested in these topics, and then have your own little like podcast club,
Andrea Enright 43:47
I don't know, cyber club. It's a permission box. It's a permission like that, yeah, yeah. It's a permission
Janelle Orion 43:53
where we're just allowing ourselves to talk about this. Because, you know, back to being a Braveheart, is about breaking societal norms, and there is no norms anymore in some of this stuff. And so we're trying to figure out what is the map and the path and the template that works for us?
Andrea Enright 44:09
Yeah, beautiful. Visit permission to be human. Dot live to learn more about her. Braveheart conversations, local in Denver at the goddess temple, also in some other cities, Philly, Boston, New York. And we are bringing people together into Braveheart communities more and more all the time. So thanks for listening. We love you. Love you. Do you need permission to be human? You
Janelle Orion 44:31
got it? Listen, subscribe and review on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about us at permission to be human. Dot live you.