Janelle and Andrea recap their THIRD In-Real-Life Goddess-Temple Hosted Bravehearts Conversation. Eleven women. Juicy topics. WowZER. There were inquiries about parents, age, invisibility, vibrators, dating apps, energy blocks, orgasms, double penetration. Bravehearts make inquires, we give insights. And it starts with asking for what you want! There’s a nod to Betty Martin, Ghandi, RBDSM, Dipsea App, Laurie Handlers, Martha Beck and ISTA.You’ll hear:
--Why Janelle is a FUCK YES to pleasure being the central life principle
--How to make your OWN hand feel like it’s someone else’s hand!
--Advice for telling family about your sometimes alternative life choices
--Why pelvic floor maintenance is a THING and who to talk to
--How to embrace the awkwardness of partner conversations about sex
--Why dating apps are a fucking personal growth hack!
TRANSCRIPT:
Janelle Orion 0:01
Andrea, hi friend, hi
friend. And
Andrea Enright 0:03
to the brave hearts listening out there. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea
Janelle Orion 0:08
and I'm Janelle.
Andrea Enright 0:08
Get ready for some real time relationship. Woo
Janelle Orion 0:11
and wisdom from the front lines with occasional tantrums and tears about
Andrea Enright 0:15
how breaking rules, blurring boundaries and tossing tradition can be catalysts for finding your truth.
Janelle Orion 0:20
Let's debunk the fairy tales we were told as children and create a new map for life. Yes, Disney can go fuck itself if you're seeking permission to choose your own path. Freedom is the new F word. People and want to feel less alone along the way, we got you. Please
Andrea Enright 0:36
note, this is our side of the story. Our partners and metamours have their own individual experiences, and we do not speak for them.
Good morning, Bravehearts, good afternoon, good evening. Whenever you're listening to this exactly,
Janelle Orion 0:54
whatever day, the week, whatever month it is, we're so excited to be here with you.
Andrea Enright 1:00
Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea
Janelle Orion 1:03
and I'm Janelle.
Andrea Enright 1:05
And
Janelle Orion 1:06
some of you may have listened already to our episode on small permissions that we recorded a couple weeks ago. And one of the things in that episode is we talked about how there were things where we found ourselves, surprisingly, not giving ourselves permission. Ourselves permission for. And as a result of that episode, something that we gave ourselves permission for was ta da. We have new microphone stands that are so much heavier, so much more heavy duty, and so the goal is to not bitch about them. Yeah, they used to fall over all the time, like into us, away from us, knocking over our cups. So this is a small, small permission we gave ourselves. Yeah, because it was we recognized it was costing us in energy, way more than the dollars it was costing us to spend.
Andrea Enright 1:54
Nice, yeah, the energy leaks. Okay, so I have a small permission too, but I've just realized I'm super excited about such a small thing, but so I spend a lot of time in my robe, not during the day, but like when I get up, I put my robe on immediately. It feels really good to me. And I sit on the porch in my robe, and it's like luxurious. I go outside in the porch in the winter and I put my winter coat over my robe, and it's just like one of my pleasures in life. So for most of my life, I have had a 19 $99 robe from Marshall's, yeah, Calvin Klein.
Janelle Orion 2:29
I have the same one, yeah,
Andrea Enright 2:33
like the little pink fake operand Calvin Klein on it. And then I had a robe from goodwill that I really loved that was red. And I'm like,
Janelle Orion 2:42
Guess what,
Andrea Enright 2:43
I'm getting myself a fucking expensive robe, wow, from LL Bean. Like, I mean, you know, just like cozy east coast, like, warm, snuggly, thick robe with a hood from LL Bean.
Janelle Orion 2:57
Oh my gosh. And I'm so excited about it. It feels so good. I
Andrea Enright 3:00
love it so much. I'm like, this is worth $1,000 right? Because I wear it every day, right?
Janelle Orion 3:06
Every day, right? And I'm sure you do not spend $1,000 No, I spent 100 right? Whatever.
Andrea Enright 3:11
It's like, no big deal, right? Like, I'll have it for a decade, probably, right, because that
Janelle Orion 3:15
is how you work with your robes. Yeah? Amazing. Yeah. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. I was like, come on, this is necessary. I'm doing this. So way to invest in your radiance. Andrea, that's right, that's what we're doing. So what are we talking about today? We are on to our next I think it's Braveheart conversations number three in
Andrea Enright 3:33
Denver. Recap, yeah, yeah. So we had a lively and juicy conversation few weeks ago, and there was talk of pleasure and partnerships and pussies and sex positions, double penetration and permission and just really a lot of kind of vulnerable and even some comedic topics, definitely.
Janelle Orion 4:02
So just as a reminder for those who don't know what a Braveheart conversation is, they are in real life gatherings. We do them, women only, men only. We do them primarily in Denver. We've done them in other cities. They are opportunities for us to gather and talk about taboo topics regarding pleasure, intimacy, relationships, polyamory, divorce, marriage, all sorts of topics that the stuff that Andrew and I cover on the podcast, yeah, and but this is these are conversations. These are inquiries and insights. Andrew and I do not have the answers. And this is a conversation between all of us where we all get to speak to what feels a question or an area that we feel stuck to, and then it's kind of crowdsourcing, where we all just share our life experience. And
Andrea Enright 4:46
these are Anonymous. We put someone puts a piece of paper in a bowl, and we don't know who wrote it, and then we talk about that, so there's no direct identification of your stuckness yes or our answer yes,
Janelle Orion 4:59
a. And even though, right, we were both poly, and we speak to that, this isn't like, Oh, we're now talking about the pros of polyamory, not at all in some fact, it's rare that that's even a topic that comes up, yeah, questions. So it's really a place where every Braveheart is welcome, because all of us are stuck in some area of our life regarding relationships, just, you know, just universal life, yeah, and so that's what we're talking about. So these today, we're going to talk about, I don't know how many questions we have here that were asked during our last Braveheart conversation. And then we're just going to share the insights that we as a collective provided. And if you ever want
Andrea Enright 5:40
to come to a Braveheart conversation, visit, permission to be human. Dot live, slash events, you can sign up there. We'd love to have you. Okay, dive in. Yes,
Janelle Orion 5:49
pleasure, yeah, that's the big that was one of the big topics. It really was, yeah,
Andrea Enright 5:55
we covered a lot. So, okay, the question was, my vibrator has been my sole source of sexual pleasure for quite some time. While I enjoy my battery powered accessory, I'm aware of how disconnected I am to who, where, etc. I wonder, I like to be touched. And should I try to find an experience an orgasm again in real life. If so, where do I start?
Janelle Orion 6:23
Okay, great question, yeah, yeah. And the first one, the first response from me was that, however you're pledging yourself is okay, right? Like, no judgment about using vibrators, and if you want to feel more connected to your Yoni and to your pleasure through actual physical touch, then yes, there are other options. But if you're actually quite content, for those of you using vibrators, then be content using vibrators. But this in terms of using other opportunities or other rituals, you had talked about the self pleasure ritual that you've done. Yeah, I
Andrea Enright 7:03
think you just want to stay, though, on the no shame first, no judgment. Like, you know, I'll just like, play a role here. It's like, is there anything that should, should cause judgment about how you pleasure yourself to know, I
Janelle Orion 7:16
would say no, if you're in pleasure, and you know, it's authentic pleasure that's true to your heart, true to your pussy, then it's good.
Andrea Enright 7:25
And I think I want to just include
Janelle Orion 7:29
and there's kindness and consent involved. Of
Andrea Enright 7:33
course, kindness and consent. Yeah, great point. But I did, like, check into porn for a while, and I do still sometimes, like, it's not all appealing to me, and it's not always the thing I need, but there's also no shame in that. I know that can be a problem, and it can be an addiction, and anything can be a problem if you do it too much. But I'm just want to say that's okay too. I know you used, you Janelle, you used some kind of an app that was, like soft porn, or a little bit like, it was a soft porn, really, really soft. Oh, my god, so good.
Janelle Orion 8:07
It was called dipsea, D, i, p, s, E, A, and it's actually, it's erotica designed for women, and it's very inclusive of different genders, of different orientations. And that was my problem with porn had always been that, oh, I don't know if the people involved want to be doing this. And this particular app was definitely designed. It's almost like, unless this, I'm not saying the app is amateur, but it was like, oh, no, people want to be on here. Plus it was only, it was actually audio. Yeah, it was, it was video. But, and so I actually discovered very, very, very, very late in life that one of my turn ons is in erotica, of listening to it, and that was a fun discovery.
Andrea Enright 8:48
Great. That's awesome. Okay, so, yeah, you asked about self pleasuring. So I guess you just want to say I have learned what's worked for me instead of maybe even having a little bit of, like, shame or guilt around it. Oh, I'm gonna sneak this in just like you might, like, eat some chocolate when no one's looking. Or, you know, there tended to be an association that was negative with it. I try now to really honor it. Maybe I light a candle, maybe I lower the lights. Maybe I plan a time when I'm alone in the house, do you? I'm curious.
Janelle Orion 9:22
Do you let your husband know? Are you like, Hey, I'm gonna do self pleasure tonight. I'll see you. I can see you later,
Andrea Enright 9:29
you know? No, I don't, but I totally could. Like,
Janelle Orion 9:34
we Yeah, it's like a date night with yourself too much here,
Andrea Enright 9:38
but, but yeah, I mean, if I'm going to be alone, and sometimes he sleeps at the office on purpose, we both need a little bit of alone time. That's an opportunity for me to do it. And also, I'm alone all day during work. And so if there's an half an hour where I'm just like, Okay, I want to relax in my room alone. But yeah, I think it's okay to get to a point where you're telling each other. Okay, you know, I'm just gonna go self pleasure, right? I'll be right back, or that's what I'm doing tonight. Great question, yeah. And then I also think that getting curious, and I wanted you to speak to this a little bit more. Like, what, what have you not explored with your fingers? Like, where do you go every time? And like, oh, actually, the pussy is like, really? Like, it's got all these folds and hallways, and it's kind of confusing to me. I think
Janelle Orion 10:29
of it as like a cave, and so I like to describe it as like, Oh, I'm going into like, a dark cavern where it's moist, there's textures, like, there's corners that I can't see, so I have to move really, really slowly because I don't know what I'm going to run into. I don't want to miss anything that's there. Wow. And so that's how I describe it to myself and to lovers. I also just a couple of like, tips and hacks. Laurie handlers, who's an incredible facilitator teacher at ista. She is maybe 75 now, and works a lot with people over the age of 50 on becoming extraordinary lovers. Ista
Andrea Enright 11:10
is a retreat. You can Google it. I s t a
Janelle Orion 11:14
great and she in, though, in the retreat that I was in with her, she says she discovered that she loves using a latex glove on her hand when she self pleasures, because it feels like it's
Andrea Enright 11:28
someone else. Ooh, I love that idea. Yes, that's like,
Janelle Orion 11:31
so easy. So easy latex glove go so, yeah. So there's so many different ways to do it. And the other thing I would also, in terms of the staying curious is this is a present day thing. Like, the curiosity gets to change over time. Our discover, our desires get to change over time. Like, I've discovered that I loved role playing and or like this, like, description of my Yoni as like, as a cave or a cavern is all in the past year. And I was just like, Oh, when I was in my 20s, I liked this thing. Well, then I've just basically stops my own evolution from recognizing that now, in my 50s, I like other things. So it's like, oh, I think it's sort of like revisiting food. I've
Andrea Enright 12:18
just seriously going to the same restaurant every day. Like, since you eat the same thing for breakfast that you did in your 20s, I don't like because, of course, I've tried new foods, and I've tried new things, and I've branched out. And so you're just saying, if you're going to the same spot every time you're missing, like, the 18 other spots you could visit,
Janelle Orion 12:33
right? Or they're like, Oh, I know what this is like already. I'm not gonna bother, right? Another, exercise you could do that i different teachers have have recommended, is doing like a self pleasure practice, like a you've done, like the 100 day haikus. Yeah, could do like a 30 day self pleasure practice, which I have done. That's a good idea where you know, you take your 15 minutes and you self pleasure every day, set it up in your schedule, and just see what comes from that? Yeah, I think
Andrea Enright 13:02
that makes a lot of sense. I think you're gonna it's gonna feel differently by day four, right? Okay, so the idea of really staying curious, yeah,
Janelle Orion 13:12
and we also was, before we go on to the next question, we did talk more about self pleasure in Episode 23 for anyone who wants to visit looking at those episodes.
Andrea Enright 13:24
All right, so next question. Next question was, how can I open myself to experience orgasms when it's been difficult my whole life? Create fertile ground? How do I do that? Such a great question. I really think there are people out there that can relate to this, yes,
Janelle Orion 13:40
yes. And my first thing is not to say that there's something physically wrong with you, but I would invite you to consider seeing a holistic pelvic care specialist, which we talked about. I didn't look up this episode. We looked about we spoke about recently, because they will consider the emotional, the physical and the spiritual aspect of your womb. And for me, I felt like I had stuck energy of 2000 years of Catholic shame around pleasure in my womb, in my pussy, my Yoni, my labia, and while some of it was mine, most of it was my ancestors. And when I did a de armoring session, and de armoring is essentially just moving through stuck energy. I moved through and released so much that now I can like the sensations that I feel are totally different than they were before. So there is support available to you that if you haven't had orgasms, it could it's like there's still nothing wrong with you, but there could be resources available to help you unlock what's locked. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 14:56
and I've heard you reference a holistic pelvic. A specialist as not as more of like a maintenance activity about your womb and your pelvis, right? Things wrong. I have to go fix it right? It's
Janelle Orion 15:09
like, oh, I'm going to the dentist to get my cleaning twice a year, once a year. And I would say that probably the first time you go, it would be more it would be more intensive and more frequent in the beginning, because you're kind of catching up, which is what was true for me, like you kind of catching up on releasing a bunch of energy,
Andrea Enright 15:26
yeah. Okay, awesome. And then let's talk. I mean, we did, we did have a whole gathering here to do pussy readings. We did,
Janelle Orion 15:34
yes, yeah, which was incredible. And that, so we talked about pussy readings in Episode 36 and this is something that I learned during kadoshka training, which is another retreat that I did. And basically this is this was just so empowering to recognize the different shapes of Yonis and how right like Angie and I just be clear, look very different, right? And so someone pudging ourselves, or someone like someone else pleasuring each of us, like, two totally different languages, two totally different things, yeah. And make it work for each of us, different
Andrea Enright 16:13
shapes, like, like, different exposures, different folds, they just all look so different, yes.
Janelle Orion 16:19
And the sexual practices of the kadoshka book, which is referenced in that episode, is what it really did for me, was normalize the differences. Yeah, of all of us that, oh, however your Yoni looks, it's perfect, and the fact that it looks nothing like anyone else you know, is perfect,
Andrea Enright 16:44
uh huh. And in fact, it looks nothing like the people in porn, is also perfect. Perfect. So you we're going between Yoni and pussy. Do you want to just describe if you can do, do you have the sort of origin? Why do you use the word yoni? I
Janelle Orion 16:56
don't Yoni is just did a few times, though. No, I know, yeah, but you asked me if I have the origin of it. Oh, I see, yes. Okay, so the so Yoni is just, it's a sacred term,
Andrea Enright 17:09
yeah, just curious, because we're going back and forth, yeah, yeah. Okay, so next question, I will ask it, and you can start it, because it's all about you. The question was, drum roll, please. Am I allowed to center my own pleasure as my organizing principle of life? I just, like, love that question. Like, that's just, that's just like, opens a door to a whole new universe, right? And what do you say? Janelle, well, for the first answer, what I say is
Janelle Orion 17:39
yes, you can and but pleasure, to me equals desires, and it also equals asking for what I want. So I believe that prioritizing my own pleasure, which may seem selfish on face value and certainly how we've been conditioned, is actually a selfless act, because it means I have more to give to others from an open hearted, fully resourced place.
Andrea Enright 18:08
Can you just repeat that?
Janelle Orion 18:11
Now? I believe that by prioritizing my own pleasure, which may seem selfish on face value because of our conditioning, is actually a selfless act, because it means I have more to give to others from an open hearted, fully resourced place. Now,
Andrea Enright 18:28
beautiful, I just want to say that that that applies not just to, you, know, self pleasure or pleasure having to do with your body, that applies to everything, right, all of life. And it is, it can be quite conflict laden when you are working with other people and saying, no, no, I'm I'm actually prioritizing my own pleasure, right? That's selfish. Because our society does tell tell us that that's selfish. And a lot of the common rhetoric or belief around that it's like, you know, you're just you're putting yourself first,
Janelle Orion 19:02
right? But I would say, as examples from even this conversation, you described your robe, you just invested five times more than you've ever spent on a robe, and the radiance and excitement of which you just spoke to that experience. So now I can imagine you putting your robe on them in the morning, and you're just like, yes, and then you're putting on your winter coat over your robe, and you're like, yes, that your daughter's gonna feel that excitement. Your husband is gonna feel that excitement, that it comes through because you are feeling so good about how you essentially treated yourself. That's true, and that's about a robe, okay, a really sweet thing that just happened to me as a result of that small permissions episode. I spoke about the fact that some of you may remember, I have invested in my radiance in $1,000 coat, but I have stayed with $20 sheets and. And get I love really soft sheets. But for some reason, despite being the thing, I sleep in, wow, I have not invested. And a Braveheart reached out to me and said, I love really nice sheets, and I would want you to have them. I would love to gift really nice sheets. Amazing. So great. So thank you to that Braveheart. You know who you are, and I have just placed the order, because I was just a Burning Man. I like, went through my photos. I had taken a snapshot of sheets that I had found at an Airbnb in Seattle a year ago. Really, yes, Jennifer adams.com Luxe collection, and I displaced the order, and I'm so excited for them to
Andrea Enright 20:44
come. Oh, yeah. So okay, I want to know, like, what's the what's the like? Is it thread count? Is it, is
Janelle Orion 20:48
it material? In in the moment of that, I was just like, it was they were just so soft. So I really love soft. I don't actually know what the thread count was, but they are ethically manufactured. They're manufactured here in the US, in all honesty, like that didn't matter to me. What mattered to me was how I felt sleeping in them beautiful. Yeah. So that is just another example of pleasure, right? And so you can feel my excitement of like, oh, what's it? How am I going to feel when I wake up after sleeping in these really nice sheets? And then that energy is going to be conveyed to my new temple mate, damasa. It's going to be conveyed to the first person I talked to on the phone. Like it ripples. There's a ripple effect when we invest in ourselves,
Andrea Enright 21:33
yeah, and I think that there's two steps to this. I just want to break this apart, because there can you can buy the robe or buy the sheets, and then just be, like, I shouldn't have bought these sheets, so so expensive. Like, like, you could buy them and then not really get the pleasure from it, or not celebrate the pleasure from and not notice it, or forget about it, or not receive it. And so I think there's really two
Janelle Orion 21:56
parts to that. Yeah, there's a shadow side. So this is beautiful, one of the women that I camped with a Burning Man this year. This year, Gabby, who I love, sister, priestess who walks in abundance. She just this is how she walks to the world. And she's such a teacher to me in this and but we talked about the discernment, where she invests in comfort, like, above all, above everything. But sometimes, like, where she's she's name that she's gonna have to work is like, oh, when is the discernment that this is exactly the thing versus, let me just buy all of the things, right, so that you have the ability to buy something expensive or not. But when is it? Are you tapping in to say, Oh, this, this, it's just this thing. I don't need all the things. This is the thing that's going to make the difference. And this thing might be expensive, but it's going to make a difference.
Andrea Enright 22:53
So it sounds like you're adapting this to everyday life by making it in moderation, right? Because if we did it all the time, we'd just be buying all the time, right? The problem, right?
Janelle Orion 23:01
Well, and so two examples. One especially, we're talking about money things here. But I also want to talk about something that's not money related, which is a big pleasure for me, is sleep. Just yeah, straight up, sleep on $20 sheets or not. Sleep is a luxury for me. That is a necessity for me. And so going to bed early and sleeping late, because that's how I roll, is, yeah,
Andrea Enright 23:26
how many hours of sleep do you get?
Janelle Orion 23:28
I get, like, 10, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know that that you don't and I got, I
Andrea Enright 23:34
would never even want 10, I like, but I yeah, I don't even get seven. Yeah, right, yeah.
Janelle Orion 23:39
So interesting, yeah. And, you know? And the thing is, is that it's not that I've wanted 10 I just had figured out that that's what my right. I knew to be in my radiance, right? That's works for you, so I, as a result, I had prioritized sleep most of my life, including taking a job that didn't start until 10am because getting a job that starts earlier didn't work for me. This is years ago. There's a cost to that, because it means I'm not socializing potentially as much or whatever. Yeah, but back to what you were just saying about things in moderation. So we, just after Burning Man, went to a spa in Reno, incredible called dolce vita, which is one of my traditions, is to go to a spa day as soon as we get off the playa. And it was so so delicious and so luxurious and such a privilege and so incredible. But it was all of those things, because I had just slept in a dusty RV for 14 days, right? If I just went to the spa today, it still would have been lovely. But it was that I had put myself in, I mean, hardships is a tough word to say. It's not really hardship, but I had chosen to be in a challenging, dirty situation for two weeks that then allowed me to really relish in the spending of that. Me differently, right? Had I not? Yeah, has it got the contrast?
Andrea Enright 25:05
Okay, so coming out. The next question is, can I tell my mother I'm leaving my respectable profession to become a sex priestess? If not, why not? And I'm pretty familiar with this, and Mindanao is too. We've we've taken some alternative routes in our life, and we have learned a lot about navigating the sharing of those adventures or decisions with people close to us. Yeah, and I think have different
Janelle Orion 25:34
opinions, right? And what I'm hearing in that is that specifically, it's like, oh, I have something I want to share that is unconventional and taboo by my family standards, and what do I do about it? Yeah,
Andrea Enright 25:46
and I think some mistakes I made early on, was telling people because I was excited about it, and maybe even with a bravado, like a like, Oh, I'm owning this because it's like, so weird and cool. So that that happened for me early on, and what
Janelle Orion 26:05
happened as a result of sharing from that place,
Andrea Enright 26:09
like, actually, I don't know, I don't have, like, a result of that specifically, but that's one way I shared that I'm like, Oh, I just recognized that it wasn't an integrity when I was doing it, so it didn't feel right. I left the conversation feeling off. But secondly, then I also told people when I wasn't yet in my radiance about the thing, and that is when you are in your radiance about what you're doing. You are not defensive, you are not proselytizing. You are settled confident. Now doesn't mean you don't still have doubts or like that. Things still might be hard, but you're not in a place to defend it or discuss it or try to convince someone of it. You know what you're doing and and you're you're good with it, right? That's my first bit of advice. It's like, make sure that you are in some type of radiance, and that may come two days into it, or it may come two years into that,
Janelle Orion 27:09
or seven years, yes, or seven years, yeah, yeah. When I chose to tell my dad and brother about being polyamorous, that was like seven years in, right? And it really took me that long for my for me to be on the journey for myself. Oh no, this is true for me. This is true for me. This is true for me, right, right? And that being said, you know, I've also had the conversation with my dad and brother about my divorce and about being a tantrika, and the anticipation of each conversation was stressful, but I waited to discuss each topic with my dad and brother when I was in my radiance, not totally true about being divorced, because I was still like, Oh, this is I was something. I was unsettled, but I was sure of the decision. Yeah, they were still going through there, but yeah, so it's Yeah. So what I mean by that is it's not I'm like, Yay, getting divorced. Like, that's not what that conversation was like at all. But it was like, ugh, I've chosen this and it's correct for me, and I'm still sad that it's correct for me. Yeah, one thing that I would say when having a conversation, depending what the what you're revealing like in the question here, right? She's saying becoming a sex priestess. I would say that the thing that most people are like number one concerned about is safety, right? And oftentimes you're also explaining something to someone that they don't understand. And it could be my case, polyamory was not understood, right? Tantrica, sex priestess, these are things that are not understood by most people, right? So I first and foremost explain my how I'm taking care of myself and why I feel safe in the decisions, the decisions that I'm making. Then I also explained what was true for me, which was the sacred and spiritual nature of this work, the impact and the healing that it had on me first and then, as well as what I'm providing my clients and helping them lead them home to themselves. So in sharing from all of those things in that way, it's not that they fully understood like what being a tantrika meant, or that they could really fully approve of it, but they could not deny my radiance and my joy, and they supported me because of that. Yeah, I
Andrea Enright 29:25
think that's an important last bit there that, yeah, ultimately, if someone you're telling has true and honorable intentions for you, they want you to be happy, and they're seeing that you're happy, right? It's kind of hard to argue with that, right? And
Janelle Orion 29:41
honestly, if they don't see your happiness and your joy and your radiance, then you can really feel not seen. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 29:48
that's true, and that happens too, right? So I think it's important to say note that in my experience, I realized early on that some people cannot receive these kinds of things, and so it would take a. Honest look at the people in your life, and I would have an honest conversation with yourself and say, who needs to know this and who doesn't need to know this? I definitely did that early on. Make a list of you know who you're gonna tell. Who are you not sure if you're gonna tell right and what? Why not, or why it's worth baking and marinating on that for quite some time. Yeah?
Janelle Orion 30:22
Because there's also the piece of you can think, Oh, I'm not living authentically or transparently if I'm not telling these people, but yet, are you actually being selfish in telling them when it's for your own benefit and not for theirs? Yeah?
Andrea Enright 30:37
And you just have to ask yourself, am I telling them for me, or am I telling them, for them? And you know, you have to decide. Maybe it is for you, and you have to do it. But this is, I think, the hard thing about waking up, and we say is that it does cost a lot sometimes when you wake up in life to new experiences, new adventures, a new gender, a new marriage format, a new lifestyle. We often say, have, just have to, or choose to say goodbye to things in our life, yeah. And that is yeah, that can be really hard just bringing just a little bit humor to this is, is that I was listening to Martha back on a podcast the other day, and she is also polyamorous, and she said, amidst many other kind of good natured and insightful things, she's like, sometimes, if someone asks, I think she was quoting a comedian, wait, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? And she just says, because I like it. And she's like, you know, that's it. Like, yeah, knowing.
Janelle Orion 31:43
Can mess with taste, right? Subjective, right? It's so funny. It's sort of like, like, no. Like, the phrase that no is a complete sentence. It's like, why are you doing that? Because I like it. That's all I need to know. It's really
Andrea Enright 31:55
true. And even in response to someone saying, Well, I don't think you should be doing that, well, I like it like there's something about that, like, No, you don't get to choose my life. I choose my life. So I I just like the simplicity of that. So partner conversations, how do you initiate asking your partner what they desire intimately without the feeling of awkwardness about it, especially when generally the sex is great, but you want to be sure you are giving them what they desire.
Janelle Orion 32:29
So when I hear that question, my first question is, what do you desire? That, to me, is not obvious from this, because you want to, because what the question questioner said is you want to be sure that you're giving them what they desire. Well, are you giving yourself what you desire? And then, from that place, it's like the oxygen mask first, totally for yourself. And so if you are great like, when Why do you want to have these conversation what feels unfulfilling for you that you are trying to address?
Andrea Enright 33:09
It's such a mindfuck, isn't it? It's tough, because I think a lot of at least I've heard a handful of women say, Well, when I ask what he wants, he just said, I just want to please you. I just want to make you happy.
Janelle Orion 33:21
Oh my gosh, this is so great. I had an experience recently where someone said that to me, and I was like, rolled my eyes, this again. And then he said, well, actually what I want is I want to be with a woman who's uninhibited about her pleasure. And I was like, Oh, well, that is a different question, because then that was an invitation for me to relax into my own desires, that it just felt very different than like I could understand that a desire of his was to be with the woman who was uninhibited, right to me, that was the that was stating the desire, not that his desire was my desire, okay? And so because he was able to name a desire, then I was like, Oh, yay, I'm happy to do that.
Andrea Enright 34:20
Okay, great. That's, I think that's fairly simple, that that answer is not easy, but it's not yes, yeah. So the second question around partner conversations too, is I have explored taboo sexual experiences since I was a teen. When I married 12 years ago, these pleasures and energy, moving experiences stopped. I would like to know how to bring this side of me to my sexually conservative husband, possibly starting with Tantra. And I think, like, my first thought is like, okay, Bravo for exploring early and knowing what you want. Like, that doesn't always happen, right? The fact that she's like, Okay, I. Know what I want. How do I communicate it? Dude, half the battle great. And I think it is the first rule, or first thing that comes up is like, making sure that you're expressing this to your partner in a way that's just coming from. Here's what I desire. Here's what I'm looking for, not like I'm trying to change you, not like I want you to do this differently, but I'm wanting to feel this way. I'm curious about X, so I mean that just should frame the whole approach. And today I want to jump in. Yeah, here, yeah, which ties to the first question is,
Janelle Orion 35:35
if you assume this conversation shouldn't be awkward, then you might be setting yourself up for failure, right? Our culture does not teach us how to have conversations about sex, even with our husbands and wives and partners and lovers. And so just recognizing that okay this like it's okay that you're feeling anxious, or however it is you're feeling about this, because there are you don't have the skills for it, and so we do. We are going to offer some skills on how to have conversations about when you have a desire and you don't know how that desire is going to be received. Yeah, absolutely.
Andrea Enright 36:11
And we, I feel like we've put it Betty Martin on this, these podcast podcasts so often. Yes, Betty Martin, like, really a big fan of yours, yes. So Betty Martin's wheel of consent is a great thing to check out. She also has a three minute, three minute game about, is that hers? Yeah, the wheel of consent. Okay, the three minute game I have found incredibly helpful, which basically is a setup between you and a partner, a new partner, an old partner, anyone that is just asking questions and fulfilling,
Janelle Orion 36:40
right? And it's really the dance is between will you and can I or and may I like, will you rub my back for 10 minutes, for 10 minutes, and then May I do something to you? And so it's all about where are you and your pleasure, and the energetic exchange between that pleasure, and when you have two people going back and forth, it's so revelatory,
I would love to say a quick story. I
remember doing a three minute game with a lover last year, and we got to the one about where he was supposed to ask me what he wanted to do to me for his pleasure.
And he literally went, like, covered his face
and turned over on the bed, because for him, asking for what he wanted was so frightening, and that was really revelatory, no judgment, but just like, oh, okay, there's some areas here. Like, now I'm aware that for him, asking for what he wanted is a challenge. We can explore that, yeah, from a place of compassion, yeah, asking for what
Andrea Enright 37:49
you want is hard in lots of ways. We also just want to touch on the rbdsma conversation stands for relationships, boundaries, desires, sexual health, meaning and aftercare. You can also Google that we talk about that a lot, or tune into Episode 22 to check out that conversation to have with any one of your partners. Yeah,
Janelle Orion 38:11
and that's a safer sex conversation that you know you could again. You can be having it with your 12 year partner, and it just allows something new to come up, right? Like, these are just skills. Like, you can be like, Oh, as we just talked about earlier in the episode, you are different than you were 12 years ago. You were different than you were five years ago. You can have these conversations and be like, here's who I am now.
Andrea Enright 38:35
Yeah, and I really don't like the safer sex label on that safe sex just like, makes me think of a condom. Like, that's how we were and so, like, it's not about, this is conversation. It's not about, it is about safe sex, but it's really intimacy, about intimacy. Yeah? So yeah, which? I'll think of a new name for that, okay, new way to sum that up. So I think the other ways to do it, this is not, this may not reduce the awkwardness at all, but think of different communication approaches. Write someone a letter, write them an email, write them a text, ask them a question, sit back to back. There just can be different ways to communicate, even with your husband or with your longtime partner and dad, that can even be interesting exciting, because you're used to just like opening the fridge and being like, Hey, don't have sex tonight, right? So, so how can you do it differently? Send them a note. Send them a snail mail.
Janelle Orion 39:29
I remember, I know a couple friends of mine who actually were gifted puppets, and so they would just talk through the puppets, right? It's at some temperature, break
Andrea Enright 39:39
the ice. Yeah, okay, and the definition of Tantra, so
Janelle Orion 39:43
the way that I describe it is that it is the integration of mind, body, spirit and life force energy and life force energy is the creative and erotic energy that. When activated, helps us feel more alive. And Tantra has several it could be like looked at in several buckets. And there's a spiritual aspect, there's a therapeutic aspect, and there's the pleasure aspect, nice.
Andrea Enright 40:13
Okay. Next question you want to read that Sure.
Janelle Orion 40:19
This is about blocks and lack I have a very specific physical type in a lover, and only a small fraction of the population fits this physical characteristic. This means there are few people from me as a lover, and so I've let go of a lot of desire for lovers. What do you think?
Andrea Enright 40:40
Yeah, the first thing that came up for me, because I've experienced it myself with lots of other topics, too, and with this, is it, like, what's blocking me? Like, why am I like, nope, only this, and that can be like, nope, only red shirts, nope, only eggs for breakfast. Like, why am I blocked around that? Is that something to do with the past? Does it have just something to do with some experience I had that associated something negative with me really looking at those blocks? I feel like awareness around this is I've just like strengthened my muscle around awareness of these so I was having a conversation with my Ayurvedic specialist the other day, and she was talking about how, like, we need to think about cooking and making different meals and shifting your relationship with food. And immediately I'm just like, I can feel the block coming up, because I don't like to cook kitchens. Do not know my domain. I don't want to spend time in the kitchen. It's like, one of the biggest pains in the ass of my life. And so I just, like, immediately, was like, blocked on it. And I thought, oh, you know, she's not saying that I have to spend two hours in the kitchen every day. Like, like, there are degrees, right? And so I just was just noticing my block. I'm not saying I'm gonna start cooking, but, like, I shared that with her, I'm just like, oh, I noticed a blog coming up about that, because that's just something that I know I don't enjoy. And she's like, okay, great awareness of the block. Like, let's see how we can work with that. So in the same way that felt about cooking, you know, what blocks might be present for you around a potential partner,
Janelle Orion 42:11
right? And something that came up for me is we were all, you know, women in our 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, in this conversation, we've all lived life, and so this is also, like a tried and true example, like, I believe you in like, this is what you desire, and it may be hard to find, and that can be frustrating. But my other question is, is it also, in a way, a defense mechanism, just like you're saying a black to avoid intimacy, right? If you're like, oh, there's a thing that I really like, but I can't find it, so I'm just gonna be okay not finding it, just to invite further inquiry into that,
Andrea Enright 42:49
Yeah, beautiful. Next question was, how can I expand my energy so more sex, dating, open interested men hit on me and feel that open energy. And I think we talked about a few things here. You know, when you don't know where to look, like, look inward. I've just been reading that a lot lately. Spend time with yourself, like, knowing that you are complete as you are, and that you don't need another person to make you complete, like, despite what Hollywood says, like the energy of your I don't want to say it's like self assurance, not self assurance. It's not self lodge knowledge. Maybe it's the ease of the relationship with yourself, I think is, in a way, attracting. I mean, I've learned that myself, like I'd become more attractive because I know myself, and I think that ends up then attracting the energy that you want around you. I
Janelle Orion 43:53
would describe that as that I am actively waiting with an open heart, but active, meaning I'm leaning in, I'm being alert. I'm not sitting around on IG on the couch, scrolling through Instagram, distracting or dissociating myself, but rather I am moving through the world, just open to what's around me that may look different, and this always comes, it always comes back to letting go of form. But what is like listening to my body? How did my body react to the situation or this person, even though it's not at all what I thought?
Andrea Enright 44:40
Yeah, and I think this speaks to being in your body as as much as in your head. I mean, it really is easy to say in your head, and you're not, you're not in your body, and so you're just, just on the surface, in a sense. And I feel like there's also, and you mentioned the word active. And I would also say there's something about creating. Like, I can get into a drought or a rut when I'm not creating and I'm just looking at what other people have created, or comparing myself to someone. And when I start actively creating something that, that can be a poem or a new running practice, or, like, making something different for dinner, I'm still creating. Like, I think the meaning of life is creation. It's like, we're always when we're creating, like, that's just the answer for me, right? Like, I don't always feel like it at all, so I'm not always doing it, but when you're creating, instead of waiting someone else to create for you, I think that's really the key, and it's, it's really fucking hard. So I'm not saying, like, go do this today. Just think about it. Okay.
Janelle Orion 45:42
Next question, how can I enjoy dating apps if it's not happening in the real world?
Andrea Enright 45:51
Well, these two vehicles for interaction are very different. Of course, I feel like, for anyone who is against dating apps, I have two, two little lessons. One is that I got on dating apps recently, I don't know six months ago, because I was desiring something. I didn't really know what I was desiring, but I knew I wanted something. I wanted it more frequent and I I was seeking an energy. And what happened by getting on the dating app was that I found I could practice being myself. I could practice my boundaries, practice being in my radiance. But I really had to stop looking to do that, right? I just started enjoying. Just started being in the now. Just started thinking, Oh, what's gonna happen today? Like, really releasing my attachment to outcome. So it's almost like, when I stopped grasping, I was like, Oh, I'm actually, you know, my little round of aiding apps, which lasted maybe two months, actually taught me more about myself than it did any guy. I didn't find a guy like I didn't. There's nothing that lasted for a variety of reasons. But I really was like, oh, you know what? This isn't actually
Janelle Orion 47:07
what I want right now, or it was for the two months until it wasn't exactly right.
Andrea Enright 47:12
But I didn't, I wasn't attached to that being long term. And so I really think dating apps can be a personal growth opportunity. The other the second part is that, and I think this, this really applies a lot to social media as well. I hear a lot of my personal branding clients say, Oh, I don't want to be one of those people. I'm like, What do you mean? And they're like, We know one of those people who's like, posting a picture of their dinner and like spouting off about politics and putting a bunch of crap on Facebook or LinkedIn or Instagram, and I'm like, Yeah, you won't be because that's not you, right, like you're gonna provide authentic, interesting, valuable insights or nuggets or pictures or articles. And I think it there is a big block around there of not wanting to be that person, and I've gone through it myself, may still kind of go through it with Instagram. I'm like, I don't want to do that. But part of this is believing in your own magic. I'm like, oh, but my magic is worth something. My Magic's not crap. So in the same way, I have heard a couple friends say, I don't want to be one of those people on the dating apps. The fact is, you won't be like, you'll be yourself, right? And if you don't like what you're seeing on there, then fucking Gandhi Be the change you want to see in the world. Like, go be a good person on a dating app. Go be someone who doesn't ghost. Go be someone who completes their profile. Go be someone who responds, go be a complex individual. So those are my thoughts. Janelle, do
Janelle Orion 48:45
you have anything for that? Yeah, the same thing for me, dating apps are just an immense personal growth opportunity to learn more about yourself, and instead of and focus more on that than the idea that you're actually going to meet someone but the time spent on there can be very, very worth it and valuable, and you can stop whenever you want. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 49:07
yeah, time to go. So next question is, because of my age, I have this recurring thought that I am invisible to men who want partnership, not just sex. How can I change this feeling of lack and this feeling that somehow I am less viable now, this really is immense about aging. We did an episode on aging a while back and like, I get it, like, I think this is something I see quite a bit about. I'm tooled for this. Like I'm washed up. I have wrinkles now I'm Gray, like I don't have the same libido I used to. So I really hear this,
Janelle Orion 49:50
this question, well, what? And a question that I have for it is, are you getting approached by men who just want sex? That was my impression. It, but because my impression is that there are so many men who are craving intimacy and touch. They don't know how to ask for it, and they think so. They think it's sex, but they want because that's the only thing they've been taught. But actually what they're craving is to be held, to be nurtured, to be touched, to cuddle, but they can be very vulnerable for them to share that and to ask that. So this is where, if the opportunity presents itself with a man to even have the conversation, then, like the rbdsma conversation can be so revelatory to both parties, because it's inviting a deep inquisition of themselves to share what it is that they're actually seeking in a way that feels safe to share. And I think both people can discover something new about themselves. Coming back to the benefit of the dating apps is that I I remember you speaking to it because you're on the more recently than I was, that you're like, oh my god, I'm pretty fucking badass. I'm really beautiful, I'm amazing. I have all this experience like, oh my gosh, right. Like, and that the men were essentially, oh my gosh. I have a friend who, right
now, just said,
it's raining men. So many men literally falling over her because she is so clear and confident in who she is and what she's looking for, yeah
Andrea Enright 51:28
and yeah.
Janelle Orion 51:30
So I'm a huge believer that there are men out there looking for an open hearted woman who loves herself, yeah, yeah.
Andrea Enright 51:37
That's really what happens. All right,
Janelle Orion 51:43
yeah. And then the humorous, funny, silly, ridiculous question,
thank you to the woman who asked it with the intention of making us all laugh, which was, how does a double vaginal penetration with two penises or positions work? Asking for a friend? Totally,
Andrea Enright 52:03
I love this, right? I'm a levity to the situation.
Janelle Orion 52:05
Yes, and this question is presented by a guest as a way to bring humor and curiosity and lightness. And none of us had experienced this so but we had a fun time chatting about how it could possibly work. We definitely did not come up with an answer, but we did try some like thoughts, yeah, but just series. So if any Braveheart has tried this, then let
Andrea Enright 52:28
us know. If you want to come to a Braveheart conversation. We would love to see you in real life. For a big fan of you in real life meetings and so check out permission to be human. Dot live, slash events, to find out when the next Braveheart conversation is happening. Could be Denver. Who knows? Could be Philly. Could be Boston. It might be all men, it might be all women, but we'd love to see you follow us on Instagram. Thanks, Braveheart. We
Janelle Orion 52:52
love you, love you.
Do you need permission to be human? You got it?
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