Janelle and Andrea share how talking about sex comes back to communication skills, yo, (ones you were probably never taught) including active listening, nonviolent communication, emotional release tools, the RBDSMAT framework and itty bitty conversation hacks. They’ve both come a loooong way. But don’t let your masculine take over--these are not achievements, they're skills that take years to put into practice. Have patience Bravehearts! You’ll hear:
--Why pillow-screaming was perfect for Andrea during difficult convos
--How simple touch relaxed Janelle’s nervous system
--Why taking responsibility for your emotions is KEY
--When Janelle learned communication is not a personality trait
--Andrea’s relief: Her big emotions were just energy!
--How Janelle’s lover felt like they’d been on 30 dates after RBDSMAT
--Location. Location. Location. Why it matters for hard conversations
TRANSCRIPT:
Janelle Orion 0:01
Struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could
Andrea Enright 0:41
be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts.
Janelle Orion 0:45
Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth.
Andrea Enright 0:54
If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel left alone along the way we got you.
Hi Janelle, Hi Andrea, welcome to permission to be human.
Janelle Orion 1:13
I am so excited, brave hearts. Lovely to be back again. We are continuing our 12 part series on and then for the next four episodes, we're going to be going deep into the tools that Andrea and I have learned. These are communication tools which have impacted our ability to speak to our partners about sex and intimacy,
Andrea Enright 1:38
so much so today, we will cover nonviolent communication, emotional release tools, active listening, and the now famous rbdsma conversation that we've spoken about many times, as well as little conversation hacks that have helped us over the years with our partners.
Janelle Orion 2:01
So just
Andrea Enright 2:03
like, is it summary in the beginning? Like, Janelle, how? How do you feel? Like these tools just impacted the way you talk to your partner about sex and intimacy and you as a person.
Janelle Orion 2:12
The number one thing is that these tools helped me figure out how to relax my nervous system. It's learning these tools that unlocked my pleasure and my ability to name my desires and I can ask for them, so they unlocked my voice as well. And it's because I learned these tools that I've walked down the path where I am now as an erotic wellness practitioner and advocate. I mean, there's really like nothing more I can say that, except that these tools have been instrumental in me now feeling free,
Andrea Enright 2:50
yeah, and as you say that, I'm just like, This is what allowed me to be brave in relationships. And actually, it's probably like the number one thing that has shifted our behavior. So for me, like these tools helped me accept who I am with compassion and forgiveness, which is really hard, because at times I was like, No, I'm doing it wrong. No, I'm doing it wrong. They were a constant reminder that I grow because I'm a person who grows not because I'm not enough, and they really led me, too, to this moment where I'm a Braveheart coach, and I can help others, give them permission to tap into their body, know what they want, and be in a conscious state when speaking with their partners. It's helped me be a Braveheart guide for those who are listening to their whispers and, like, want to improve their relationship, like, a little word of caution. I think when I think of tools, I go immediately into my masculine and I think, okay, like, what can I achieve? How can I check boxes? How can I, you know, get these things done and then be done with them? I'm like, great, learn that next thing. And that is just not how this shit works, right
Janelle Orion 4:06
at all. I would say that, yeah, what you're speaking to there is the comfort for me and for brave that I want to convey to brave hearts listening is that, yeah, these are just skills. These are tools. These are skills that you can learn. It's okay that you haven't learned them already, because we're not taught them. You're not supposed to innately know them. These are skills and tools that you can learn eventually. They work really well when you embody them. And I think that's what Andrea is just speaking to right right now. When you're like, oh, like, it's a check box, it's like, oh, it's not a check box. Because this is a constant revisiting, am I like embodying the truth of these tools and skills.
Andrea Enright 4:44
Yeah, and I was just thinking like, instead of thinking them even as tools like, just think of them as, like, the slides and the swings on the playground of your soul, right? Because, Coach, I just love that image, right? Because I love being on this, on this. Doing. And so they really are just as much about learning and understanding who you are and how you show up in the world as they are about your partner. So these tools for talking to your partner about sex and intimacy are about you first and then how you can show up. So Okay, start with the actual tools.
Janelle Orion 5:21
So the first one we're going to dive into is active listening. And here is a summary of what active listening is when you want to show that you're listening number one thing, right? And that comes through things like eye contact, nodding an open posture, you can interject things like, Oh, I see go on right if verbal cues are helpful. So that's number one, is to show that you're listening. But two is you actually want to avoid interruptions. So you want to let the speaker finish and finish their thoughts without interjecting. So
Andrea Enright 6:03
for me, this is so hard, because if someone has this long monolog, and I'm like, oh, but, and part of that should just be like, no wait. But I just like, keep a little notebook and I write things down. Like, it's like, oh, I have to respond to that. Like, oh, I have something to say about that. And then when they're finished, I review it, and it's like, oh, the ideal me. I don't know of how often I actually do this. When I go over those things, I'm like, Oh, is that relevant? Like, is that necessary? Like, and then I can respond better for me, writing things down, just like I constantly write things down as people are speaking. Like, helps me learn. It helps me track my thoughts. And so whatever works for you, I encourage it. Yes. And an example,
Janelle Orion 6:39
I have a friend, Sonia, who, if we leave each other long voice memos, and what she'll do is, while she's listening to a voice memo is in the text box, she'll be taking notes, listening to the voice memo, and then send me back the notes, and then be like, Oh, here's just my notes. But now I'm going to ask you the questions based on the notes that I took. What I do for your boxes? I was like, Oh, I have to respond to that. So, yeah, so Okay, all of that to say, those are all ways. So you're not interrupting the speaker, because you're the listener. And
Andrea Enright 7:09
I just want to say the first thing you said about eye contact and staying, like, with an open posture, you know, right away, I'm just like, oh, that's hard, because sometimes I'm like, oh, like, I'm, I'm clenched, I'm, like, kind of folding in. And I just want to say it's, it's, like,
Janelle Orion 7:28
it might take you a while. It could take you years to learn this, to for it to be innate. Hi, I'm open. I'm
Andrea Enright 7:33
listening. Like, that's just not what I'm doing right away. Sometimes I'm looking away because it hurts or so, or
Janelle Orion 7:39
eye contact can be confronting. Exactly the goal of this podcast is to introduce we are not expecting anyone to get this dialed in. You just need to know that there's tools out there. Okay, so continuing on with active listening. We've talked you want to show your listening. You want to avoid interruptions. Number three is you want to paraphrase and reflect. So once the person is done speaking, you can then say, I heard you say it sounds like you're saying and you reflect back to them and paraphrase what it is. And this helps to convey understanding and Andrea, you and I used to do this all the time, when you would reflect back something to me and like, Oh no, that's not exactly it. It's and so it wasn't that you misunderstood me. It was that what how I conveyed it wasn't exactly accurate. So then it gives the speaker a chance to, like, fine tune what it is that they're saying. And
Andrea Enright 8:36
so I think this really points to something that that my husband often said, that often said, he has pointed out a couple of times that the responsibility of the communication is on the talker, right? So if someone isn't hearing you, it's not their fault. They're not hearing you. It's your fault, like, and there's no blame, but like, it's your responsibility to speak louder or to be clearer. Yeah. What do you think about that? I do think there are some people who are really bad listeners, for sure, but assuming that someone is like, intently listening, yeah,
Janelle Orion 9:07
okay, so if we have both people who are like, invested in one in conveying an idea, and the other person is actively listening and is still misunderstanding what is being said, Yes, I agree with that. Okay, cool, yeah, but this is why, this is the listener can, can help facilitate that like, Oh, this is what I heard you say, I'm paraphrasing. And then that listener, or the speaker rather, gets to say, oh, no, yes, no, that's correct or not. Okay? The next thing the active listener, the next step, is to validate emotions, which is, does it mean you are agreeing with someone on what happened, or anything like that, but you can, can say, Oh, I understand that was really challenging for you, or that must have been really hard, right? Like it's not putting into an agreement or anything like that. You're just empathizing with them on the experience that. The speaker is sharing, yeah, and then the next thing is to ask clarifying questions, right? You've restated now already, like, paraphrase what they've said, but now you get to bring your curiosity to it, and so ask open ended questions about what it is that they've shared, right? Like, what happens next? Can you tell me more about that? Can you tell me more about that? Is, like, the catch phrase of active listening. Totally.
Andrea Enright 10:27
It's like, so cliche, isn't it? And think there was something early on, must have attended some seminar or something where someone said that one of the best things to say is, is there more anything else? Like, because, you know, there might be something that's, uh, not quite wanting to come out and, like, really, in a non pressure way, just saying, like, anything else you want to share. And
Janelle Orion 10:51
then another tool that we use is, is that for the the speaker can say, I'm complete, and that's a sign saying that they're done. And then the listener can, at that point, you know, continue with more questions. The other tool of active listening is to withhold judgment, right, like avoid forming conclusions or judgments or offering advice until the speaker has fully expressed themselves. Because one even in that statement, what I just said right there, this, the speaker may not actually even want advice. They just might want to have been witnessed in what they had to say. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 11:30
I think it's really hard. I think it's really hard to not judge, or to, like, not have form an opinion immediately, right, or try to fix it and give advice. Yes, totally fix it. Okay, awesome. And then the
Janelle Orion 11:41
last one is to provide thoughtful feedback. So I'm just going to recap these real quick, right? So active listening skills involve. One, showing your listening to avoid interruptions. Three, paraphrase and reflect. Four, validate emotions. Five, ask clarifying questions. Six, withhold judgment, and seven, provide thoughtful feedback, beautiful.
Andrea Enright 12:09
I think these are so helpful. Yeah, I should put them up in my house.
Janelle Orion 12:15
And I just want to like mention again that these are skills that will not just improve your conversations with your partner when you're talking about sex and intimacy. These are just life skills about how to improve talking and relating to anybody. And in that way, I really feel that like what these next several episodes are about are they're really life communication skills. They're not just about being in partnership. Yeah, I
Andrea Enright 12:40
was thinking about talking to my daughter like, this is, these are all really important things. So well,
Janelle Orion 12:46
actually, now I'm curious. Andrea, another one that we've talked about we're going to talk about is NVC, non violent communication. So
Andrea Enright 12:53
I heard about NVC very long time ago, but really didn't start practicing it, probably till a few years ago. Like, more seriously, so the four components of NVC, nonviolent communication are observations, describing what you see without evaluation and judgment. I'm just like thinking about this again, like, how do I do that without having a particular tone in my voice of how I feel about it, or my opinion, it's a challenge, but try to describe what you're seeing just like, what's an example of that? Like, Oh, actually, you know, I have a question about that, because it feels like I would say that I'm saying something about my partner and saying, Oh, you seem upset, but that's putting feelings on them, which doesn't seem right at all, correct? So, what's, what's an example of an observation, I
Janelle Orion 13:48
see that your tone of voice is increasing. Is there a physical thing? It's not a feeling. I can see that your face is getting, like, pinched, right? So, like, is there a physical attribute that's kind of like a fact, not, I'm guessing on how you're feeling inside, right?
Andrea Enright 14:07
Something that's not It's not debate, like, it's not debatable, right? Okay, it's not debatable. So two, second component of NBC is expressing how that observation makes you feel. So to me that was like the clear, like, that's the I statement. It's not the you. You seem upset. It's like, I'm feeling charge. I'm feeling sad
Janelle Orion 14:29
to go back to what you just said. Like, if it was like, Oh, the first observation was, oh, I'm noticing that you're starting to speak louder, and that your tone of voice is becoming sharper, so I feel myself now starting to shut down and get tense when I hear that tone of voice. Okay.
Andrea Enright 14:51
The third component of NVC is identifying the unmet need behind the feeling which i. Find challenging also. To me, this is a it's kind of a guess, like I'm feeling this way, and I feel like this means that I need x, and I think in a conversation that could be I need you to hold my hand, or I need us to slow down. That's how I've used it anyway. And then finally, the request. Ooh, the request. So making a clear, actionable and positive request. Note, this is not a demand rate. So this is not like I'm saying this, and I want you to and I need you to do it right now, and I expect you to do it right now. This is like, I'm requesting this, and this person may or may not comply with that request.
Janelle Orion 15:48
An example of requests could be, I hear that this is really important to you, and I want to give you my full attention. It's 11 o'clock at night right now and I'm exhausted. My request is we have this conversation again tomorrow, at 9am when we both had some spaciousness and I'm feeling more recharged.
Andrea Enright 16:06
Yeah. And a request I often used was, can we go into a different room and be touching, yeah? Can we table this conversation like or even just, I need a moment alone. I'll be right back. I need to go collect myself. I need to drink of water, like I need to breathe, or can we take a moment to breathe? And I feel like that. That's something I've learned over time to, like, tap into my body and see what it needs, but sometimes have a hard time voicing that request. And I mean, my experience with NVC, the primary component of it was to stop saying you're doing this to me. You seem this like starting all the conversations with you and just being like, no, back to me, no, I feel this way, or you feel angry, yeah. And this was big, because I was basically blaming my emotions on my partner, like you make me feel this way, it's your fault that I'm x, y, z, and this was just like owning my own emotions, taking responsibility for my own feelings was a critical point in helping me talk to my partner about anything, and especially sex and intimacy.
Janelle Orion 17:15
There is a book that we recommend that's just called non violent communication that I highly recommend. And brave hearts have a funny story, which is that this was one of the earliest tools that we learned. I'm trying to think like, this is like, before we were married, we were still dating. This is, you know, like six, seven years ago, maybe my first time. And I took notes, and I found my notebook yesterday, which is right here, and what I had titled it intimacy and sex never forget. It was like I was using these tools. Then I would get into me intimacy and sex is how I viewed it. And I can say now, wow, I have come a long, long, long way. And one of the things that was really, really hard in the beginning when I was doing this was because I felt like, oh, I have to change who I am and order. Like, I didn't understand that communications was actually a skill. I thought it was a personality trait, and I thought it was a way of being. Because I was someone who was outgoing and talkative, I thought that meant I was a good communicator. I had no idea that there were skills to be learned, right?
Andrea Enright 18:30
I don't want to say that it's not communication styles are a personality trait, I believe, and there are different ones. They're not right or wrong, but to me, it is a part of your personality, how you communicate,
Janelle Orion 18:41
but there are skills within that, right, like you and I are out loud processors, right? That hasn't changed, but my ability to be a better listener has changed, my ability to be more thoughtful, my ability to take responsibility for my own emotions, all of these things that we've just reviewed in the last 20 minutes are not styles, they're skills. And what I confuse they only knew communication style and equated that to be the all encompassing thing about communication was, uh
Andrea Enright 19:11
huh, like you had a style and that was it, and like that. You know, there was no there was no reason to accommodate someone else or shift, to be with someone else in communication, is that what you're saying?
Janelle Orion 19:22
No, it was simply that I didn't know communication. There were communication tools and skills that were separate from style. I'm an out loud processor. That's it. And be all that's that's just what communication is. Right for me, instead being like, Oh no, there are books on this subject. There's like an entire industry on this subject of, I'm an out loud processor and I'm an out how can I be a better listener? How can I ask more thoughtful questions? How can I take responsibility for my emotions that are coming up while I'm having a conversation? Oh, this was just like a whole. Cool, like, area of like, it's such a fundamental part of being human is learning how to communicate, and I was only learning this as a skill set in my mid 40s.
Andrea Enright 20:15
I don't know why, like, but cultural conditioning or somehow I really got the idea, particularly in a partnership, that that it was just about the other, like the other person, right? Like as as we've talked about, we leave each other long, these long voicemails. And I would go on about my partner, my partner feels this way. My partner's doing this, my partner's doing that. And then Janelle would reflect, back to me, no, what about you? No. Back to you. No, back to you, not him, you. And then I would do that for her. And I'm not sure why that that was our default, but it was. And so this isn't unlearning as much as it is a learning. Oh my
Janelle Orion 20:56
gosh. Mic drop, yes, yes. And I think really, especially for women. It's absolutely true for men, too, but that for women, we're off. We're just conditioned to put the other person first and not put ourselves first terms of how we're feeling, to like, put it all onto someone else. And so I love what you just said, that it is an unlearning that we are responsible for ourselves in this way.
Andrea Enright 21:25
Okay, should we move on to emotional release tools, which so big for me. I went to ista, which we have talked about many times on this podcast. It's stands for International School of Temple arts. It was a life changing experience for me, and ultimately I learned, a, as I just mentioned, I am responsible for my own emotions. B, just because I am big and intense and reacting and have a lot of emotions doesn't make me wrong or a bad person, it just means that I have energy that needs to move through. And so this was just an important fundamental belief for me, because I really thought I get so big and I have all this shit coming up, and my partner doesn't, and it's just a problem. I just have to stuff it down, like it's not good, and then I would just leave every conversation feeling bad and emotional release. Tools are essentially shaking, pillow, screaming, hand screaming. It's a way to expel this energy out that then brings you to a calmer place where you can have a more conscious conversation. And it's a release of energy, and it's just that single thing alone has really changed my life and my conversations, not that I always, I don't always do something about it now, like, I just, I'm no, I notice it, right? I'm like, oh, there's I have this charge coming up, and so then I can say, oh, you know, I have a charge coming up. This is not about you. This is not your fault. But I have a lot of energy I need to release. So that was really big for me. Yeah,
Janelle Orion 23:06
beautiful and bravehearts. We think these tools are so important that we have covered them a couple of different times. One, there is an episode already about emotional release tools. And then two, in one of our upcoming episodes, we're going to be we're going to be interviewing Brianna cribera, who it was my ista facilitator at my first ista that taught me emotional release tools. So we're going to be actually getting the perspective from the experts about these tools.
Andrea Enright 23:35
Janelle, do you want to talk about rbds? Ma, Mm, hmm.
Janelle Orion 23:39
I do. And again, this is one another, one of those tools that we've both learned at ista that we have other podcasts about. And we're also going to be talking to Brianna about these tools as well. But the acronym one of my clients is like, oh, what's the alphabet soup conversation? R is for relationships. B is for boundaries, D is for desires, S is for sexual health, M is for meaning, A is for aftercare, and then there's a T at the end, for trauma. And this conversation has been, yeah, in terms of what relaxes my nervous system the most it is for me to have this conversation, certainly with a new partner, but also even with a current partner, where we just wanted to come back together again and be like, Oh, here's where I'm at in this moment, Andrea, like you didn't love this, though. When I first learned this, I was like, Oh my gosh, Andrea, this thing, and you were like,
Andrea Enright 24:37
No, I really didn't love it. It felt too clinical. I just kept picturing like me laying down in bed with a partner and being like, okay, let's talk about this first. And that's just like killing the mood and being too it's too linear, and it took me a while to embrace it. And when I say a while, I mean, like, years, like, but that's the point, is that you can have this. Conversation with your partner, like your longtime partner, your husband of 20 years, or you can have it with a completely new partner, or someone you've been seeing for a year. And once I started doing it, it definitely led to a more vulnerable and honest conversation about intimacy. Like it just it was like getting vulnerable before you got naked, you know, like sometimes weeks before, not hours before. And so I kind of think of it as, like, really staring into your lover's eyes, your potential lover's eyes before you're actually staring into their eyes in bed. Like it's very different. And we've both had some really interesting responses when we've chatted with people about this, let's see, Janelle, what was one of yours?
Janelle Orion 25:46
One for me was he said at the end of this conversation, we took like, two and a half hours. The whole evening was based around the conversation. It was a second date. And he was like, I feel like we just had 30 dates rolled into 130
Andrea Enright 26:00
dates, right? Because usually that's because conversations are just spread out, and sometimes they don't happen at all. Yeah, I can remember a couple of mine, one, one we just did over dinner, right? It was, like, a two hour dinner, and we just, like, took our time, right? It was just like, oh. And then, you know, the R led to other things. And then we'd get back to the acronym. But, like, it helped us, just like, navigate each other's mazes so much easier. I did have one, a very new partner, say, wow. Like I just, I feel so respected by you, like I feel so seen by you and and I'll never forget that moment that was just, it was so beautiful. And I just I felt close and so good about our conversation, regardless of, like, how we answered that, or what was going to come next. It was Yeah. It was
Janelle Orion 26:49
beautiful, yeah. And it also gives an opportunity of choice, because these are vulnerable conversations. You're one of your answers, the other person may not relate to and resonate with and want to continue like a really obvious one is, if you're someone who is looking for a lifetime partner and wants to have kids, and the person who's sitting across from you actually is not looking to have kids, then that might be enough to say great, like You're wonderful. And I think this isn't going to be in alignment and kind of as a waste of our time if we pursue it. And it doesn't mean anything's wrong with either one of the opinions. It's just, it's an acknowledging of different designs. I
Andrea Enright 27:33
mean, ultimately, that sounds awesome. And what comes up for me, as you say that, is, I think, like, the 27 year old me would have been like, Oh, she's it's having the courage to be that honest with yourself and with this new partner, because the other partner wants it to work. You're like, oh, but, like, oh, but it's like, really close. So like, let's just keep going. I mean, that's what I would have done at 27 I wasn't emotionally mature enough to stop Well,
Janelle Orion 27:56
I think that that's actually like, what you're naming is the paradoxical wisdom of this conversation is, in a way, it's actually less about the other person's answers, because it's about what your answers are, because you have to reflect on them. What are my desires? What are my boundaries? And right there, these are not words that I had when I was 27 right? And so then, if I have to state those out loud, then can I enforce my own boundaries that I just said, right? And so this is where, like, this is such a excavation of our own ways of being and desires. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 28:36
it seems like I have this, like, memory of you telling me a story about being with someone and asking them what their desires are. And so I don't know, I don't know if other people do this, like, what? Like? I feel like I was there with you, because I picture this happening right, even though I was clearly not there. But I remember you said you asked someone, what are your desires like? What do you really want me to do? And I think you describe them as, like rolling over off the bed, and like going into fetal position and like hiding their eyes, yes,
Janelle Orion 29:05
and so we were actually doing the three minute game from the wheel of consent. So it's a little side note, but I said, yeah, the three minute game, you're going back and forth
Speaker 2 29:18
and asking, like, what would you like to do to me for your pleasure? Or what would you like me to do to you for your pleasure? And in what would you like to do to me for your pleasure? This person completely went into a collapse like the idea of having a desire and asking for it was so overwhelming for his system. Yeah, and this is normal, like, this. Ha, this totally happens. Like, it, like you shut down. Maybe you don't, like, physically show it, but when talking to your partner about sex and intimacy, you're gonna come up on a question, and you're like, I don't want to say that out loud. I'm not sure, even with someone you've been sleeping with. For 10 years. So this is, yeah, this is what happens. And
Janelle Orion 30:03
what I'm really excited about is to be interviewing Carmen de Jesus in an upcoming episode on the wheel of consent. She is a facilitator and works at the School of consent, and so we're gonna go dive deep with our expertise on that subject. So
Andrea Enright 30:18
finally, we have some just like little conversation tools and hacks that we've basically both come up with over the years in talking to our partner about anything from from Google Calendar to sex and intimacy. And so let's just share a few of those. One of mine that I have used but not often enough, is talking back to back, and I know this, in a sense, violates this active listening that you were talking about about, like meeting, having eye contact, but because I tend to show my emotions a lot on my face, and I'm a reactor, and I'm always looking at other people's faces to see what's happening on their face, potentially interpreting things that are Not true. And it was also with a partner who tend to be more of a peacekeeper, and so I think sometimes feared upsetting me, it has helped us not to be looking at each other when we're talking about things. And so it can be talking back to back. It could be talking on the phone wherever. You cannot see each other's face, and you feel like you can express a little bit more freely that way. That's a great
Janelle Orion 31:21
one. My experience, right, is tone of voice has is very activating for me. And so if I, if I'm seeing a face with the tone, it can be really hard. So yeah, like this is where, like, being on the phone for me, similar to back to back, was like, Oh, I'm not, I'm not watching facial expressions and doing the same thing as which is making a whole story up based on what I'm seeing. Exactly. What about you? One of my communication hacks that I figured out really early on was touching while talking. For anyone who's done like The Five Love Languages, physical touch is actually my top one. And I had this really interesting discovery where I realized that if we were, if I was having a hard conversation with my partner, and we were not touching. And by touching, I mean holding hands, or even like, just like my arm touching his arm in some form, could have even been, like, our feet touching below the table, if we were not touching, it was as if my ears no longer worked. What do you mean? Like, I could not hear what he was saying. Like my body was in this like, reaction of, and like, going into story of, oh my gosh, are we gonna break up? Oh my gosh, she doesn't like me. Oh my gosh. And, like, I had all these overwhelming like, it basically always it became very ungrounded, and stories just floated in my head. And so I always ended up having, like, dialogs with myself instead of listening, instead of active, listening to what he was saying. And what I figured out was if we then had the same conversation, but we held hands, something about that was so grounding for my nervous system that my ears opened again and whatever, like, alarm systems were going off about and, like, making everything so much bigger than it really was, I Got to be like, Okay, I can hear you now. And so that's something that was a tool that I still
Andrea Enright 33:28
use today, yeah. And I think even what we did just like sitting, legs crossed, face to face, knees touching, like, because sometimes I feel like I like he would reach out to touch, and I'd be like, nope, not right now, I definitely resist it if there's any, like, activation or charge going on for me. And so I typically had to, it had to be a little bit less in the beginning, and then maybe, maybe I would like as the conversation went on and we could touch more. But, yeah, that was a challenge. And then,
Janelle Orion 33:58
I mean, that's a good point. What you're saying is that that was important for me. But if the if, like, if my partner was someone who actually got activated by touch, or it wasn't calming to their nervous system, then you have to find something else.
Andrea Enright 34:12
Yeah, totally. That's what, yeah, definitely have to do with someone in my life whose love language is not touch, and that can feel like a rejection at first, you know, that doesn't, it doesn't feel good, and like trying to honor what they need and how they can be most comfortable and how their nervous system is best. The other thing that is, I would say, is, to me, it's counterintuitive. My teenage daughter talks about like, you know, breaking up with a boyfriend over text. And you know how, like that totally happens these days. Like, doesn't sound very great to me, but sometimes communicating via text, via email, via a note on the mirror, being a letter via letter really was helpful for me and I. It. I actually was unsuccessful at shifting some of our conversations to email. I wanted that to happen, but it just didn't like work with our life that easily. But it's like this did several things for me. It would allow me to process the news he was giving me on my own terms, on my own time. I could read it, I could walk away. I could reread it, I could sleep on it, and then I could come back to him when I was ready to talk about it. Like, if we could have done that from the beginning, like, would have been so much better, I think in a lot of ways. The other thing is that it could have been more efficient at times, because usually we were, like, running around, like, oh, we have, like, 15 minutes to connect between these two events that are happening in our life. And, you know, oh, my daughter's gone for an hour, and this is all the time we have. And so it felt rushed. It didn't feel like we had a lot of time, like we were just trying to squeeze so much into a small container. And then I definitely had a trigger around, like, oh, we have to go now, right? Because we because we had to, and I was just, I would just get so triggered around that just like, No, I'm not finished. Like, I need more time. Like, we have to talk about this more. And so I think that sending off those emails and then scheduling a time to come together and discuss just gave it more structure for me when I could do that, it also strangely enough, because this relates to one of the questions we had at one of the Braveheart conversations, where someone was asking about how to weave intimacy into their everyday life, instead of just in the bedroom. And I think this can end up actually weaving intimacy into householding, rather than like, saving this conversation for like, when you're in bed, like, maybe you set aside a different time or a different container or a different setting to do it, or maybe you're doing it on email or like, and then adding a heart and adding and I love you, or adding something that like, connects you at an intimate level, definitely outside the bedroom, that can be incredibly helpful.
Janelle Orion 37:00
Yeah, I love that. Another tool that I eventually like, really like embraced, was actually setting a container you kind of spoke to it, but really naming like one, thinking about my when am I the most resourced to have a conversation, and then how long do I have? Right? As Andrea knows I am renowned for underestimating time, and I think something is going to take two minutes and it doesn't. And so saying getting better at being like, okay, I'd like to block in half an hour, or I'd like to block an hour, and then acknowledging that, oh, okay, we've got five minutes left. We haven't finished this conversation. Can we schedule another one to follow up? But kind of putting an end to it, versus what I would do in the beginning is that we could process for hours and hours and hours, and then it never felt like you're just kind of like swimming in the quicksand of it all. So creating a container to say, this is how much time we have when we're in even if we're in between things, but even if we're not in between things, just saying, This is how much time we're going to dedicate to this right now and then go apart and then come back if necessary.
Andrea Enright 38:13
So I want to talk about habits, because we have talked about active listening, nonviolent communication, emotional release, tools, the wheel of consent, our own conversation hacks and all of these really, ultimately, ideally, would become habits of yours, right, that you're weaving into every conversation. And for some reason, when I was often talking with my partner, and we were often under a time limit, or, you know, just it seemed like we were always out of time to fully discuss things. I just wouldn't take the time, right? I wouldn't take the time to touch I wouldn't take the time to write things down. I wouldn't say, okay, you know what? We both should sit on the couch. Okay, let's put the timer on and say, Okay, we have 30 minutes to do this. Like I just didn't take the time to do those things. I didn't take the time to get water or go to the bathroom. Like, it's just self care, really, but and so however, you can build those habits into your life. Do it. They need to be attractive. They need to be easy. They need to be simple. Like, have the candles ready by the bed, or know how much time you have in a particular container, plan ahead, schedule it, put it on the calendar. And we often just would, would kind of flow unscheduled into these conversations. I'm just like, this is not the good time to be having this conversation. And yet, it felt like, uh, when or else we gonna do it? And so we would just dive in anyway. And that just didn't set us up for success. And so I really encourage you to think about how you can weave these into your life, for you and your partner, right? See what they have to say about that, like, how will help them? Is it a cheat sheet, you know? Is it a notebook sitting with them? Is it always going downstairs instead of saying upstairs? Is it shutting the doors? Like. Right? What are those things that will help you develop the habit beautiful
Janelle Orion 40:03
and so brave hearts. Which tool are you going to explore this week, or research or try or whatever it is, know that these tools can impact all the conversations that you're having, but especially those that you want to be having regarding sex and intimacy with your partner, and we wish you a lot of luck. As I pointed out, like change does happen when we want it to happen, so I'm really grateful for all the efforts that I put into myself. And I I would say I'm a Andrea can pat my back on this. I have become a much better listener and communicator over the time well, these last many years, yay. We love
Andrea Enright 40:43
you, brave hearts, thanks for listening. See you next time. Good luck.
Janelle Orion 40:48
Hey, Bravehearts, looking for permission,
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