Ep 121: Part 5/8, Why Clean Devotion & DS Dynamics = Orgasms and Freedom: How to Design a Relationship that Works

In this episode, Andrea and Janelle sit down with Adam and Emily, partners in their 50's who are crafting love with intention instead of default settings. After marriages, monogamy, and open relating, they’ve chosen a dynamic they call monogamous with a dominant/submissive current. They speak candidly about unlearning self-sacrifice, dismantling “happy wife, happy life,” and replacing conflict avoidance with courageous truth. What if structure, commitment and focus actually led to freedom? What if being with another helped you meet yourself? You’ll hear:

-About the orgasms that await on the other side of the fire

-How to confront geographic challenges with fluidity and ease

-The value of an intuitive “fuck yes” policy

-About Adam’s devotion without self-abandonment

-How Emily has reframed “submission”

-Why you should “excavate” early and often TRANSCRIPT:

Janelle Orion 0:00

Janelle, struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy, AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts. Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth. If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel less alone along the way, we got you really feel like there was a lot of mic drop moments as we interviewed Adam and Emily today, because they're basically saying that the relationship drives their growth, and they are living a very geographically inventive life, but spending time together. And I just I loved how they've talked about how they are not going to bail when it gets hard like that. They're constantly excavating, and the reason they're not going to bail is because they have figured out that on the other side of the fire and the excavation lives, freedom and orgasms.

Janelle Orion 1:46

That's all we need. Freedom and orgasms. Okay,

Janelle Orion 1:50

that's enough to listen brave hearts, that's all you need to know.

Andrea Enright 1:53

Yep, another new relationship format coming your way.

Janelle Orion 2:01

Hi, brave pirates. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea, and we are so excited because for our latest episode of our season six, how to design a relationship that works, we are interviewing two of my dear, dear friends, Adam and Emily, who are going to share with us their beautiful and unconventional relationship.

Janelle Orion 2:26

Welcome to the two of you. Thanks for having us. It's great to be here. It's great to be with you too.

Andrea Enright 2:32

So good to see you, Adam, and so great to meet you Emily for the first time. Yay. So Adam, who's 54 and Emily, 51 have been together for one year. Both have been divorced once before, and both have experience in open relating polyamory and monogamy. They currently call their relationship format, monogamous with a dominant, submissive flavor, and they play with others. Adam and Emily split their time between Denver, Colorado and Sebastopol, California. Adam is a DOM and a real estate agent. He loves mountain biking, skiing, backpacking, travel and living a minimalistic life. Emily is an architect, and she loves her community, loves adventure, likes to golf, go horseback riding, host dinner parties. And she also likes art. She loves to explore her unknowns, which for her means moving towards fear. Together. They love to explore the erotic and dominant submissive field.

Janelle Orion 3:37

And one thing else I want to add is that Emily's also a writer, and she is, yeah, we're looking forward to seeing her writing out in the world sometime soon. Just to start like, what did you learn about relationships? Because my guess is you did not learn the relationship format that you guys are living today. We were

Emily Pringle 3:57

thinking about this question last night. I had two very loving parents and a very kind of supportive, healthy, masculine father, and my mother was, you know, very embracing and supportive of like, being yourself and all of you know all of that that entails. However, I learned one incredibly bad habit, which was a kind of no conflict is good conflict and a keep peace at all cost, and don't sweat the small stuff a lot about that you want, you know the river to remain calm at all like that is the goal. And I was raised, raised like that, which is not bad for a kid, per se, but definitely when you come into a relationship, it doesn't work that way. And so I had a really healthy relationship. Relationship with you doesn't work like that. I had to unlearn that.

Adam Mackstaller 5:06

So what I learned about relationships was, from early on, I didn't have a good model. I don't think, and I you know, if I looked at my dad and talked about his relationship with my dad was married to my mom. They got divorced when I was six, and then he got remarried until I was out of college, until my early 30s. And what, what I learned in watching my dad specifically was that there was, it was this constant trying to serve his partner, my mom originally, and then my stepmom. And it was not harmonious. It was very acrimonious and not not acrimonious, but actually it was very painful for him, because he was always coming up short. And I could see him constantly coming up short and not and his idea of what it meant to serve his partner was off balance. And so I kind of learned this. It like Relationships are hard. It's struggle, it's it's a lot of it's upsetting too. I didn't have a good, loving foundation of relationship when, when we got started, I'd say, or, you know, when I got started as an adult?

Janelle Orion 6:26

Yeah. So here you are now, in your 50s, in a relationship that is evolving. What did you discover that you had to unlearn to get to this particular relationship?

Adam Mackstaller 6:38

I think the primary thing that I'm up against in terms of my own self in relationship with Emily, is that there is sort of an automatic I think to a certain extent, I absorbed some of my dad's behavior, as in my relationship life, of This anxiety to take care of my partner. It's like an anxiety to make sure everything is okay. And then there is a it's like trying so hard that it creates upset sometimes. And so what I had to really unlearn, and what I continue to unlearn, is, is the control of trying to make sure everything is okay with her, and allowing her to have her experience more without it being my responsibility entirely. I mean, there's things that I get to influence but, but this is she's gets to have her whole world as well.

Emily Pringle 7:37

Do you want to talk about the Happy wife, happy life, self sacrificing sort of conundrum.

Adam Mackstaller 7:46

I have railed against this idea of happy wife happy life, and it's interesting because we kind of identified yesterday, in a conversation that that, for me, the whole idea of happy wife happy life was like this complete self sacrifice, self sacrifice to my own detriment, not in a holistic sacrifice kind of way, but in a in a depleting sacrifice kind of way. And so that has been an evolution, and we just uncovered this, actually in conversation yesterday, that that idea of I was saying that happy wife, happy life, didn't pertain, and it was wasn't an effective idea for me. But really that's not true, because making sure that Emily's taken care of and served is my joy, as long as it's not to the to the depletion of myself. I guess that's a new unlearning. Learning for me is, how do I how am I in service without it draining my battery to the point that I'm resentful, or really resentful, is the right word?

Janelle Orion 8:52

Yeah, beautiful. We've talked a lot on our podcast about that, right the boundaries and by putting ourselves first, is actually in service to the whole it's because then we can be offering from a full cup.

Andrea Enright 9:08

Idea, yeah,

Adam Mackstaller 9:09

I was just going to add that it's but also the giving, it does fill my cup. It's an interesting balance there. It's a harmonious balance of when I am making sure she's taken care of, and then it's a circle I make sure she's taken care of, and then, and then she pours her love back into me, and we just go around and around in that way. And that's part of that, also part of that DS dynamic as well.

Andrea Enright 9:40

So because you were so far one way in the pendulum of self sacrifice, must take care of my wife. I'm curious about your challenges as you went the other way in that journey. What did that look like, and how did you come back to center?

Adam Mackstaller 9:57

You know, truthfully, I still very. Much feel it come up when it's like a there's like a wave of compulsion for me, of trying to trying to serve, and I I'm trying to pay attention to my whole inner field so much more carefully than I used to, where I would have an energetic geyser go off inside of me, of like compulsion to take care of, you know, a situation in my, in my, my original marriage or that was upsetting for me. I didn't notice it. All I had was the experience of that energy just gushing out of me, of really trying to serve and then feeling frustrated because I wasn't doing a good job. And now what's happening. The difference is now that I'm like, Oh, wow. Watch this. Here comes a bunch of energy, like I can feel it now and I'm paying attention to it now, and I'm like, Okay, well, what if I hold it now and don't let it just burst out because I'm upset because I didn't do a good job. I hope I'm making sense with that, but that that's what, that's what's happening for me, right? Yeah, beautiful,

Janelle Orion 11:04

Yeah, beautiful. And then Emily, I know you spoke to the unlearning had to do around conflicts and communication, yeah.

Emily Pringle 11:12

I remember this moment when we just first started dating, and Adam said, you know, your job is to just really pay attention to how you're feeling and to then tell, you know, express the upsets and get really tuned into the places where something doesn't feel right. It doesn't, you know, doesn't sit with you. And I thought to myself, like, okay, but I don't even know if I can do that. Like I'm not looking for those things. I'm not even and what I was taught that when they come up to basically, that's your you know, that's for you to sort out yourself like that. Even in relationship, you you take whatever's upsetting and you go like, well, that's just wholly on me, and I need to deal with whatever the thing is, what's developed instead is now, I may not know the real like root and the cause, but something goes amiss, and I'll be like, say, there, there's a little moment. And I'm now learning to go like, Oh. Like, maybe I don't even have the words like Ouch, but can kind of get closer to the thing and the emotional expression, and that's taken a very long time to feel that, that can be felt and then expressed and condensed the time between the moment. So a lot of the learning this year has been there's been many times where something will happen, and then a day later or so, I will return to it. And now it's getting shorter and shorter so that there can be a cleaner kind of flow, and in those ripples, you

Janelle Orion 13:05

know, you say that your relationship has like a DS flavor to it. I don't know if you would describe it differently than that, but at the root of it, a question that I have is like, what's an essential agreement that the two of you have that might seem strange to brave hearts who are listening, but that works for you.

Emily Pringle 13:23

Can I talk about the DS flavor? Just to give a little bit more, please. Context for me is having started this relationship knowing nothing about what any of that mean. I'm pretty sure when, when we sat together and you told me that you were a DOM, my reaction was like, Oh, well, I'm an Aries. Like, it was like, love it great for you. I'm so happy for you. Like, no understanding whatsoever. And then kind of more of this, like, oh, what DS also means for me, is like this very much holistic, easeful, feminine cocoon, say, and when I think of it in those words, because There is something about sub that can feel like I want to fight against it a little bit, but there's not much about an easeful feminine cocoon of flowing just comfort and security. I don't there's not much I want to kind of fight about that the second part of your question, it goes back to those upset things. We don't let any crud build up. We've got very clean circuits working here. And it can be really little, and it can be not so little, but there isn't something that happened two days ago and then I'm kind of carrying around. Around here, even if I we're kind of like we're excavating down to make sure that nothing builds up in that negative place.

Adam Mackstaller 15:12

Yeah, I would just add to that this idea of keeping it clean at the bottom. It's just natural in relationship. I think that residue starts building up something that got said. There was a word that you used when we fought that was nasty, that I just hated. There was a there's something that you said at some point and it stuck to me, and now it influences how I'm responding into you. And if we don't go back and really clean those things out and be very curious about anything, any kind of energetic pieces that debris from fights or what have you, that has happened if we're not careful, those things add up, and then there's a layer. So I think that, yeah, that's a big, important part of our relationship that we really work on.

Emily Pringle 16:07

I firmly believe that, too, that the DS component enables Adam takes all has from the moment he's like, showed up to this relationship in a very secure, confident, masculine sort of knowing I'm never left like questioning how he feels about me, like there it's just very, very like I certainly came in kind of behind that secure this is happening. This how I feel. This is what I'm thinking. Just a lot of communication around his knowing of us, so that just then I wasn't ever in that position of that we hear so many of our friends talking like, oh, gosh, I don't Am I too much? Am I have I like, pushing this guy too quickly? Does he really want to be in a relationship with me? If you can imagine, none of that was ever present, yay.

Janelle Orion 17:18

So amazing, isn't it? It's like, oh, it can be this way without all of those questions, and those like, I'm not sure, and like,

Adam Mackstaller 17:27

all the game playing, maybe. Or like, oh, do I say this? Don't I say this? When do I say this? How do I say we didn't, I don't think we're our approach was, at least from my perspective, my approach was always like we say everything, and we get it out and we talk about it, and because I want to be here, so there's no you don't have to question whether or not I want to be here. I choose to be here, and we're moving forward. And so it's, it's a fuck yes until there's a problem, and we're moving forward, so just assume it's a fuck Yes.

Emily Pringle 18:04

May I add something just very briefly, that one of my very critical things that I had to unlearn in previous relationships was I had this story that said, if I say things exactly right in the perfect tone at the right moment when someone else is ready to receive it, that then I could be understood. Like it's always like, then I will be known. And now in this relationship, all of that has gone away. It's basically like, you show up, you say what you need to say. I take it as one of the great gifts that we share. The other person is wanting to know me versus my ability or inability, to put it out there in the perfectly wrapped present of like the way it could be ingested that's not on me anymore. That is like something that the relationship can handle. What came up

Janelle Orion 19:01

for me is like, the relationship can metabolize it, right? If there's any sharp edges to what, however you phrase something, then the relationship is like, thank you. I'm still, I want your words, no matter what phrase or tone they're in. That's right.

Janelle Orion 19:15

It sounds like it's a safe space, right?

Adam Mackstaller 19:17

It doesn't have to be packaged. Your thoughts and feelings don't have to be packaged exactly right in order to be able to be heard. It can be messy, and we'll work our way through it.

Janelle Orion 19:27

Something that you guys wrote about was your man, was this manifesto? And I have the first paragraph here. Does it feel relevant for me to share what your manifesto was, and maybe you guys explain what your manifesto is? Sure, absolutely, I'll read the first paragraph, and then you can tell us the first point of this document states we agree to always have the hard conversations with one another. This entails noticing the sensations in our bodies that are closed off or constricting in any way. We may not know why feelings have arisen, but regardless. Heartless, we will talk about it with an open heart and curiosity, although we may need to wait to have a conversation due to circumstances or an awareness that one of us is feeling triggered, we will always endeavor to talk with each other as soon as possible. We allow for grace in these conversations, they will be approached with vulnerability and tenderness and the grace to know that we are learning through the process, and no one is perfect, and that's written down. You guys have that written down. So if one of you forgets, you can refer to it, right? I mean, like that feels so like it's like a deep exhale in my system, like it's a really solid foundation to be standing on.

Emily Pringle 20:42

I feel like, in a way, we've been talking to that first point in our manifesto for the first few minutes here together. And I love how it's written. I love that it is somewhat aspirational, because I can tell you 100% we don't live up to that at times at all. So it, but you can go back and go like, Okay, we may have fallen short of this, but this is our goal. This is our star, our North Star that we're wanting to head towards.

Adam Mackstaller 21:15

On that exact note, when we have had, you know, we just went through a challenging couple of weeks recently, and I found myself pulling out the manifesto and reading every line of it time and again as a reminder, and really calling me to be the man I want to be too inside of that. And so the manifesto for us, I think, has been such a it's like, take my attention off of Emily and off of my feelings and my upset or my frustration, and put my attention on where we're going. And that has been very powerful, to open up more space where, then I can hear her, where, then I can, I can, I can drop my fight and have space to allow her to step in and to be seen, and I can see her with what it is, where she's coming from. So it's a it's that tool has been so powerful for us, so powerful

Janelle Orion 22:18

you kind of spoke to this, but I love a little bit more of, then how this relationship is inspiring each of your own personal growth.

Emily Pringle 22:28

I think, you know, that's a great question, because I was remembering one of the points in the manifesto around our sovereign journeys. That is absolutely something that I see true. And I see this, you know, this DS, as the two of us holding these polarities of this masculine and feminine energy. And it's kind of, then, like the relationship covers and holds us together in that, in that energetic polarity, that dance that you know, and in some ways we are moving energetically, the masculine, feminine, further apart, but it always stays balanced through the inner through this tie together of the relationship. So it is as I feel myself sinking deeper into my submission, I witness Adam moving into this more powerful realm, like I can watch it happening, and that's this real beauty of our meeting each other and balancing each other in Our own in our own place, in our own bodies, in our own energy.

Andrea Enright 23:45

Emily, I would love, from your perspective, to get some really concrete ideas and examples of how this DS plays out on a typical day.

Janelle Orion 23:54

And I'm just going to interject for a moment. Andrew is asking for a friend. I'm Yeah,

Andrea Enright 24:06

actually, both are true, right? Like, I'm asking for the bravehearts. I'm asking for me. I'm new to this DS dynamic, which I'm also exploring, which feels really awesome to me. And I'm glad you stopped me, Janelle, because this is, I feel like what I have asked you so many times. I'm like, Okay, what does this look like? Okay, tell me the example. I want an everyday fucking example. And it's, it is not something that's like, oh, it's like this. I'm like, okay, great. And I walk away. That's not how it works. Like I get it now, but I think I feel like it has taken a while to really like bake in what it's about and what that looks like because of the cultural conditioning around dominance and submission in our society, there's just an instant picture of the bedroom with whips and chains, and that's how it is. And I've learned. So much about this contrary to that. So this is part of why I'm constantly drilling down as well.

Emily Pringle 25:06

Yeah, and, you know, I think the way it lives in for me is there are two very different ways that I've struggled with, and I'm trying to, you know, bring into harmony when we are together, versus me out there in the world, there is something required of us, women to interact in this world that is not always in the submissive sort of realm right in the And yet, there is this to just go fully over onto the other side doesn't kind of feel aligned and easeful. That's like putting on a costume that doesn't quite fit. I just am getting much more easeful and comfortable around allowing and receiving all of the niceties that we were maybe told just are are outdated. I love having the door open for me getting into the car, and I thank my daddy when he does that for me. You know, I let he wants to do it. I let myself enjoy it being done for me, instead of thinking it against some sort of like, you're like, that's not what you're supposed to do. You're not supposed to let that be done for you. You're not, you know, or just like, letting go and in that letting go, of getting in that, letting go of what someone's telling me I should or shouldn't let happen. I get to then just think, Oh, this feels good. I can just let this happen. There's nothing I don't I don't very little judging around myself. Adam does all the driving when we're together. He drives all the time. So here's, like, an example of, like, then when I'm on my own, I'm like, okay, driving time. Like, have to kind of go, like, All right, let's drive. You know, where, if you're in for days of like, togetherness, you let that go. You're not driving. You're just getting in the car, and the doors open for you, and you get to sit there and look out the side window. And so

Andrea Enright 27:25

funny, because this is this recently. I'm just like, I never drive around anymore myself, because my boyfriend's always driving. It's really nice. I'm so used to it, but I got, I don't even take my I don't use my car as much. It is a little bit of an adjustment, right? But I love it, right? And so I thank you so much for that. Example, Emily

Janelle Orion 27:46

and Adam. Do you want to go back to how this relationship has impacted your personal growth?

Adam Mackstaller 27:51

You know, it is interesting. I have wanted a powerful partnership. One of the reasons why I've wanted it, and I've, I've gotten a lot of affirmation out in the world to the same thought, but it's really from my own experiences that you know, what this gives me is this, if I'm by myself, and I'm not in a if I'm in, if I'm Just in a dating life scenario, there isn't the opportunity to do my work inside of a relationship, because it's always skipping across the tops of the waves, not always, but it has, you know, dating and being in an early relationship status, or where there's not the more challenging places it is. It's just so much easier. I think that's where people oftentimes, what I've what I notice is that people, and even myself, when it wasn't quite right in when I was dating, would pull back and exit because it starts to get hard. And what I notice is, and I've heard this from various sources. And Janelle, you'll I don't remember the names right now, but they're people that you would actually know. I've experienced it. And the idea is simply that the relationship is like a it's a medium for me to do my inner work. It is a place where I get to go do the hardest things. And the reason why is because they get driven up inside of relationship. And if I'm not in a relationship, those things never come to the surface. They don't get revealed, because I'm never in a triggered state like that, just talking about the weather with whomever. But when I'm in relationship, I find the deepest, darkest corners of myself, and it gives me the space and the ability to do my own work. And I really do believe that that's one of the foundations of what a real relationship is. It's like a spiritual journey of. Self development, and if we choose to show up in a curious way, if we're curious about ourselves, etc. So although it's so difficult at times, but it's so difficult because really, I'm just finding myself there and those difficult parts of me that I'm really committed to letting go or transforming. So for me, the whole relationship is all growth and personal knowing,

Emily Pringle 30:28

I would add to that that it is at times, so hard and so painful to look in at ourselves and like take ownership of what's happening, I would surmise that that is the place where many people say, Fuck this shit. I don't want to do this. This is like, not even worth it. And there are times when we are down in the depths of our argument, where we're looking at each other and it is hard, and it feels hard, and it feels like heart hard, and I could imagine, like, and then we get, I mean that get through thing and like, the ownership of what's happening for ourselves takes a lot of like, staying in the fire And the curiosity of what is getting uncovered within yourself to move through that and not want to just go, like, I didn't sign up to get this close with someone. I didn't sign up to be this known. Oh, I want to be known, but like, don't look over there.

Andrea Enright 31:33

Thank you for acknowledging that. I think, for brave hearts and for everyone, it's like, because it does get fucking hard and it gets really uncomfortable, right? And you have to sit in that discomfort.

Adam Mackstaller 31:43

It's the kind of uncomfortable. It's like getting into water that's so hot or so cold. You're like, I have to get out of here right now. It's like a survival thing. And I think we have that same when we fight. It gets so nasty. Sometimes it's like, it's almost like survival, and it's not, I shouldn't say so nasty. It's not, we actually fight really well. But there are, and I give you a lot of credit for this, because what Emily does is, I don't want to go off on a tangent here, but it she she can hold the she doesn't respond, she doesn't react as quickly as I do. And that little breath, that little gap, that little thing that she can do, allows us to slow down. It allows me to slow down. It allows me to see myself. It allows me to hear how my tone of my voice, and then I'm like, oh yeah. What I want to say is that it feels like life or death when it's not going well. It feels really strong, but then we work through it always.

Janelle Orion 32:55

That's a beautiful acknowledgement of like the depth of the fire. And I would love for you to speak to. Then, when, since you're willing to go there, what has, what lives on the other side of that fire?

Emily Pringle 33:09

I mean, a lot of really good orgasms. I knew you're gonna say that. I'm feeding

Emily Pringle 33:14

this. I want this part too.

Emily Pringle 33:20

Those count. I mean, that goes back to that polarity. If you're willing to like, make it through the intensity, it only then grows the pleasure to like the there is a correlation. If you want to live safe and simple and keep it kind of low key, then you can expect your pleasure to be kind of corresponding in that and then this emotional, you know, the emotional kind of dredging the hard stuff then lends to this spiritual, emotional connectivity on the other end too, balancing it out,

Adam Mackstaller 33:56

ask the question one more time for me, if you would please, since

Janelle Orion 33:59

you're willing to go down, excavate, and be in the fire. What then exists on the other side of the fire?

Adam Mackstaller 34:06

It's not good news. It's, it's,

Janelle Orion 34:10

it's not orgasms for you,

Adam Mackstaller 34:13

it's usually. What it usually comes back to for me, is just this clarity of like, oh yeah, I did this. Like, what's the power is? Like, coming to the other side of this, what seems like her fault, clearly, so I mean her behavior and whatever. And then about how I'm feeling, I'm feeling in response to like her behavior, and what ends up happening on the other side that makes it worth it is this huge realization that, oh, wow, look how I'm creating this. Look how I am responsible for showing up for this. And then all of a sudden, when I. Reclaim. And here is the key that is for me that is so, so important. The moment that I am responsible, I get freedom back in my life, in my body, in my breathing, in my in my self expression, in my everything, the moment that I'm like, Oh, how did I create this, this upset all of a sudden, when I take full responsibility for like, Oh, I see what happened. I got triggered by something, and then I said this, or my little, you know, hurt little boy inside, got defensive about this, or something. All of a sudden it's like, oh yeah. And then my body can relax, and then I can get back into a space of freedom and creation. And that is what's on side. On the other side of every one of these big upsets, honestly, it's, it's some awareness of what I did or or even if it was mostly her, there's still this part that wants to punish her, or wants to like, be right about it, and when I release that, then I'm there's freedom. What's on the other side is freedom. On the other side of these really difficult arguments is freedom.

Janelle Orion 36:15

Okay, brave hearts. So what we've got are orgasms and freedom. This is why it's worth staying in the fire. You kind of can't get better than that.

Andrea Enright 36:23

Adam, I feel like there was a full circle there, because in the beginning you talked about the responsibility your dad had to, like, do you know, do things well and please your mom and like, so hard, so hard, so hard. And responsibility does not have to be like that, right?

Adam Mackstaller 36:40

It's, in fact, I would say, I would take it even one step further Andrea, and say that that responsibility is the freedom when I am responsible, when I do take on the commitment, when I'm learning more and more in this life that being free is actually through commitment and being accountable and responsible. It's not from running away from things, it's going into them and taking them on. That's when I am so free, because then now I don't I'm like, I know what I've got to do, and I know the mountain to climb, and I am that gives me so much freedom of my energy and excitement and focus.

Janelle Orion 37:24

Okay, this has been so rich, but we've been talking about the emotional pieces of the relationship. And what I would love for you guys to talk to is the unconventional living arrangement you have come up with for this moment in time. So one of

Emily Pringle 37:41

the things we did that was very helpful for us, when we started dating a year ago, and like, flying back and forth, and all of a sudden, you know, people are asking us, so what are you guys gonna do? You know, like we're asking ourselves, what are we gonna do about this distance? I'm in California and Adam's in Colorado, and we're like, okay, we could focus a lot on this question, or we can say that by the time the winter solstice, December 21 comes around, at that point, we will have an answer. So we just like, punted that one way down. Gave ourselves a lot of space to just not worry about it for the time being like, Oh, we're going to get there, but we're not going to hammer this out right now, because no easy solution is presenting itself.

Adam Mackstaller 38:31

And what was our criteria? Fuck yes.

Emily Pringle 38:35

Always these hard decisions come with a fuck yes, meaning that we don't want to, like, push into something that just, like, there's too much resistance, like, if it's just not feeling, you know, and it wasn't, it was tough. Like, there we both are, have these full lives with community, with homes with children, with grandparents, you know, the whole thing in these two separate locations. So we, we punted, and then we, as we got closer to, like the year, started feeling like, okay, one I was then in a place to say, You know what, I'll come, how about I come out to Denver two weeks every month. So that started developing. And then we also leaned into this idea of both an and versus either or, because we want to for us both. Well, let me just speak for myself. For me, my community that and you mentioned that in the bio, it's so important I adore my friends and my family and like and it's hard fought, and I pay close attention, and I am the type of person that wants to show up for people and and although I know you can build new community, I to give one up. Didn't feel right. So we're kind of thinking about these two places as we have both of these communities, both of these homes. Yes, as opposed to having to choose. So that was, that was one piece that kind of, then that settled in, and there was something else, but I lost it.

Adam Mackstaller 40:09

I just want to expand on one quick thing that she said about so we have a series of big learnings that have happened. You know, they're added into our manifesto, and also just these, the way that we're doing things is we set a timeframe. We'll say, Okay, we're going to figure out how to do this by the 21st of December. Now the answer is, it has to be a fuck yes for both of us, and we're not going to push it. It will reveal itself in time, and we'll keep exploring it in conversation. We'll have conversations, but there were a couple of conversations where all of a sudden things got kind of tight, where Emily said, Well, this will be our solution. We'll start looking for a third home, or, you know, like this, this idea, and I found myself getting tight about it, and my, I'm bringing this up because we immediately said, Wait a second, we're off track. It has to be a fuck yes, that's the key. And we don't have to get a solution today. This was like halfway through that period of time. So this, this thing, this new system, that we have to work through challenging problems is we we set a timeline with the parameters of what does the solution need to look and feel like, and then we don't push it, we just allow it to iterate and unfold in conversation. If it doesn't feel aligned, we just let it go, and then we start over again. That is one of the thing, the tools that we've used to be living apart and solving challenging problems.

Janelle Orion 41:48

So what I'd love to hear then is, where did you guys settle? Right knowing that this is not settles, maybe the right word, although it does apply, where did you guys land? As far as here's two places, community, in both family, in both homes, in both children, in both what is the solution you're going to experiment with for the next period of time?

Adam Mackstaller 42:08

We're spending two weeks in together in Denver, and then we're spending a week in California together, and then I come home, so I'm basically spending one week a month in California and three weeks a month in Denver. Emily is spending two weeks with me in Denver and then two weeks in California. So what that means is we just have one week where we're not together per month. That's our solution. That's the answer.

Andrea Enright 42:42

Okay, yeah, great.

Janelle Orion 42:44

Thank you for summarizing that. And then Emily, what you were saying is recognizing that in your experience so far, that time apart, so in this like, you're you're baking in a one week time apart that you know has the potential to be quite challenging. Oh yeah,

Adam Mackstaller 43:00

it's and it's amazing. It's such good work.

Emily Pringle 43:03

It's such good work. It because of where I come from. I just want to, like, float through the like. I want to coast along in the like, oh, the good feeling is here, and let's just coast on this week. And that is not what happens generally, and that's okay. And with there's a lot, we're getting all this great, like, Great difficult growth from getting through that hard stuff, apart the miscommunication, the getting better at communicating. It's, you know, we rely so much when we're together on just, you know, being together you don't have to always be talking, and then when you're apart, you have to actually say the thing that you can't feel into somebody when they're not there. You have to use your words.

Adam Mackstaller 43:47

It's a huge growth space for us not being together and staying equally as connected when we're together, we just know where we are at, and it's so easy when we are not together. Lots of other bad habits can come up and we can it gives us access to work on those old behaviors, etc. So it's a it's a huge fertile ground that is fucking hard.

Janelle Orion 44:13

Sometimes I'm also hearing that like you're, you're giving yourself each a week a month without each other. And I'm curious, really curious, like to see what comes of that, not in your relationship, but for your own personal growth, on your own being alone, like doing different things, not doing things together, like, which I love, the spaciousness of that.

Adam Mackstaller 44:36

Yeah, it's just built in. It's just built into, you know, and it's actually, it wasn't intended. It's just the reality that Emily, what Emily needs and what I need, we have these two different homes. So it's just built into the cake. It's the way it works.

Janelle Orion 44:52

And I also, you said this two different homes, but really, what I in another conversation had with Emily, was it's about two different communities, right? Right? That, like there is people she didn't want to let go of after having worked so hard for to have these deep relationships to say, Oh, now, like my relationship with with Adam is the one that takes over everything else and everyone else has to go away, yeah, and that she really stood part of your Fuck yes. Was standing for those that community and not losing yourself in the relationship. Yeah.

Emily Pringle 45:23

I mean, I have been in a position before, in my in my marriage, where I picked up and moved to a place because it was required for job and whatnot, a place that I from the minute I put my foot down, I was counting down the days until I could get out of there. Sorry, Los Angeles, you're not for me. So I in that sort of fuck yes. Like, will there maybe be a point where I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm picking up. I'm ready to move to Denver. This is Let's go, or vice versa, but a bit of that, you know, hard won community where you have your people and your, you know, your yoga place and all that stuff. Like, it just takes time. And like, we're not 20 anymore. It's like a different coming into this relationship feels very, very different for a ton of reasons, but one of them is you understand more of like, what are the things that you need in your own for your own self to be happy.

Janelle Orion 46:22

So Bravehearts, if you are curious about anything that Adam and Emily have shared and just would love to have a conversation, then reach out to us and we will get you in touch, just bowing down, as I do, to the two of you with such deep gratitude for sharing vulnerably and authentically about this journey that you're on, and I just love witnessing it, and I love that we get to share your journey with our brave hearts. So thank you so much.

Andrea Enright 46:50

Yeah, thank you so much. Adam, it's great to see your journey. And Emily, it's so great to meet you, because I've heard so much about you. I really appreciate Yeah, you're sharing and and with so much vulnerability and honesty.

Janelle Orion 47:04

All right, so Bravehearts, thanks so much, and have a great listen.

Janelle Orion 47:10

We love you. See you next time.

Janelle Orion 47:18

Hey, brave hearts, looking for permission, work with us. Andrea offers permission coaching, and Janelle offers erotic wellness sessions. Follow us on Instagram, meet us in real life at permission to be human workshops in Denver. Subscribe to our newsletter. Do all this and more at our website, permission to be human. Dot live. You. You.