Ep 123: Part 7/8, Legally Married, Personally Single: A Radical Family Experiment: Designing Relationship that Works Series

In this episode, Andrea and Janelle sit down with Nitsan Mesika, a wilderness therapist and psychedelic practitioner who has spent 25 years legally married to her partner… while both consider themselves single. Instead of divorce, they designed something new: a shared home, separate bedrooms, fluid parenting roles, independent romantic lives, and a fierce commitment to the family rather than a formula. Nitsan’s story is a reminder that relationships aren’t static agreements — they’re living ecosystems. There’s a nod to Non Violent Communication. You’ll hear: -How she explained it all to her kids

-Why Nitsan and her partner don’t strive to be the same

-The difference between conflict and rupture

-When texting is better than talking

-How Nitsan parented in her non-traditional setting

-Why a relationships don’t have to follow norms to be stable, loving, or ethical Find Nitsan Mesika online at nitsanemesika.com TRANSCRIPT:

Janelle Orion 0:00

Janelle, struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy, AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts. Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth.

Andrea Enright 0:54

If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel less alone along the way, we got you Braveheart so much permission, permission to be married and single at the same time, permission to text with nonviolent communication during arguments, instead of doing it face to face. Boom, just those two things are enough to listen to this episode.

Janelle Orion 1:24

Yes, nitsan is so articulate about how she has trailblazed just a new way of being in relationship, but most importantly, how her commitment is to bringing living beings into the

Andrea Enright 1:42

world and how that is actually a lifelong commitment. Yes, her commitment to the solidity of her life with her family is a beautiful and responsible way to create her own relationship structure. Ooh, hold on to your hats.

Andrea Enright 2:07

Hi, brave hearts. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea and I'm Janelle, and this is our next episode of season six, where we are interviewing couples and singles and beautiful humans about how they are designing a relationship that works in their own way, in their own format, as their own, their own inventor of like what works for them instead of following society's rules.

Janelle Orion 2:34

We are thrilled to have a dear friend of mine, NEET San, on this episode, and she is someone who, as I heard her say, she had no choice but to be a trailblazer in life. She can't live any other way but authentically. So here is a little bit more about her, but first, nitsan, welcome to the podcast.

Nitsan Mesika 3:00

Thank you. I'm really thrilled to be here. Can't wait to see what this will bring. Nissan.

Janelle Orion 3:05

Masika, 51 has been legally married for 25 years to her partner. It's a first marriage for both of them. They cohabitate and CO parent two kids, one at home and one in college, and they live in Boulder, but both consider themselves single. Nit san is a retired software engineer and now a wilderness therapist and psychedelic practitioner who is curious about consciousness, expansion, Cluster B, personalities, ceremony and soul work. She says currently, she and her partner don't like to do much together, but it ebbs and flows. So we love that honesty. Nitsan, thanks for starting us out just like that. Yeah.

Andrea Enright 3:49

So I'm fascinated by this seemingly paradox idea of being legally married, considering yourself single, working together. And so we're going to get into that, but I want to get a little more context first. So nietzsan, can you tell me what were you taught about relationships?

Nitsan Mesika 4:08

Nothing and everything? Like I would say, everything in life is pretty much those two kids that I have. They have parents who are married for the last 25 years, and they have grandparents who have been together, and thankfully, are alive and well and kicking. Both couples are still married for one over 60 years and one over 50 years, and so my kiddos have two generations of like living partnerships that are working. We have been taught everything about relationship through these relationships, and we've never been sat down and taught about relationship.

Andrea Enright 4:47

What I'm hearing is it's all from modeling. It's all what they see. It's all what you've seen, not what you've been told. So is there any belief or value about relationships that you had to unlock? Learn to be where you are today.

Nitsan Mesika 5:02

I remember when I was a teenager, I was looking at my parents, I was like, I will never be in such a loveless passion, dispassionate marriage. And because I was a very loving, passionate human being, and I believed in romance, and like all of those really, really big things, and, you know, soul mates, and I'm still quite a romantic. And what I've learned over years and years of being partnered and being in relationships in very radical ways is that what my parents have in their solid, grounded, unbelievably, supportive way is such deep love and such beautiful relationship that I would really, yeah, wish that on everyone. So yeah, I had to unlearn that kind of Hollywood idea of of romance,

Andrea Enright 6:03

yeah, got it. So I heard you say, like, the word grounded, right? Like, grounded and supportive. So what does that look like in your parents relationship?

Nitsan Mesika 6:12

My parents have this beautiful There's no word for it, right? Because it's not independent, it's not dependent, it's not dependent, it's not codependent, it's not interdependent. It's like this beautiful, supportive, independent symbiosis. I don't even know how to call it. They just work. They each have their own like lived life and connection to each other, and they hold a family together, and they have a we in such a way that I haven't seen in many other people. They have a true collective consciousness that they're carrying. And that's something that I've always kind of because I grew up in it, I didn't realize how unique that was. And so, yeah, I think that that's that's to me, that's the guiding light, that's the that's the beauty of the relationship.

Andrea Enright 7:06

You feel like you're emanating that as well in your current partnership.

Nitsan Mesika 7:12

I will say that that is my guiding light. I will say that that's how I hope to show up in every relationship in my life, the only way that I can explain it is that if we are in a relationship and you're hurting, it feels like my own arm is hurting. And it's not that I'm hurting, so I need to save you. It just feels like a part of we, which is part of me, is hurting so so we tend to it and the resource tend to it, not because there's like, a give and take, or because it's a like, you take notes, who did what, it's just because we have those resources and we have this pain, and so we address It,

Andrea Enright 7:59

sounds like just a deep care for each other, like, we're talking in really abstract terms right now, and so what are the concrete ways this shows up? Like, I'm talking about like, you know, on the ground, carpool, dentist appointments, mother in laws, dinners. Like, what does that look like when you have this deep care and have a long term relationship and yet you're both single.

Nitsan Mesika 8:26

So yeah, transitioning to the way that it looks like in our life, we live in the same house, we have our own separate rooms, and we have for years now, and I was homeschooling and unschooling my kids for part of the time. So I was full on 100% in and Yuval was going to work and bringing the money. And a few years ago, I transitioned into therapy, and so I went to school, and the kids went to school, and then Yuval started driving them back and forth from from school. Yeah, it just emerges. The truth is that it emerges like I'm currently recovering from surgery, and so you've all stepped in, and when I have more space and resource, then I step in. We're not hoarding our resources, taking notes. I did this. You did that. It's more like if I have I give

Janelle Orion 9:20

Where do your desires come in? Because now I'm hearing that here's the pain. But when you have a desire of like, oh, and I want to go left turn over here, how does the we operate in those moments when each of you have a different desire from each other?

Nitsan Mesika 9:37

So Yuva and I have different operating systems. As I said, I come from collaboration, and we Ness very much, very deeply. So I will say, Hey, these are the things that I would like to create or do or be. For example, we're building a pergola. It's a massive project. And I found the people, and I called them. In, and I got the quotes, and then I told you about, hey, listen, it's this amount of money, and I want to do it. And he's like, ah, that sounds like a lot. I don't know if we should do this. And then that was it. I was like, Oh, what are we doing now? And so we talked about it, we figured it out, we had an agreement and and now we're doing the project. Yuval, however, is very much kind of like a solo, independent human being. So he will say, I want to do this thing, so I'm just going to do it. And I'm like, Hey, hello. I want to I want to participate. Yeah, so we kind of like lead each other in different ways. I'm more of the hey, let's do things together and consider all the moving parts together. And he's more of a trailblazer in his own way of this is needed, then I'm just going to do it kind of thing. And so we're different, but we it somehow works.

Andrea Enright 10:56

It sounds like you feel free to pursue what you want, whether that's a new pergola or or school or school. So is there a way that the relationship itself has inspired something in your own personal growth?

Nitsan Mesika 11:14

I mean, I think that the answer is no, in the in the relationship itself is inspired. But I will say that the relationship has always been such an open ground to experience and experiment whatever I wanted. There was no like, No, you can't do this, or we can't blah, blah, blah. It was always like, yeah, do do what you want, be who you are, and and that allows for whatever emerges to happen. There's no, not a lot of in terms of personal growth. There's not a lot of blockages in this relationship.

Andrea Enright 11:48

So you were going to do the pergola, and he was like, I don't know about that, that cost. And it sounds like things, you know, it sounds like things have been slow, and you're like, Okay, we have to talk about this. And so it appears very smooth. Is there a particular process that you follow when you disagree or when you need to repair.

Nitsan Mesika 12:04

I will say that like there's nothing prescribed, but if I look back, then we tend to come to each other when there are things that require, you know, mutual agreement or resources that we have together and and then we sit and figure it out. Sometimes we fight, but we figure it out. Sometimes it's frustrating, but we figure it out. So the interesting thing about the pergola is that it ended up being an exorbitant amount of money, and he ended up saying, like, Yeah, let's do it. Can you take the price down? I was like, I don't know. I'm not good at taking the price down. Can you hop on this call with me? And he's like, I don't want to participate in that thing. I was like, please. You are so much better at negotiating that type of stuff. So we hopped on the call. He dropped us 12% of the overall price. And I was just like, cheering in the background on the call. So yeah, I think that that's similar to the way that my parents work, and the way that his parents work is that we really lean into each other's strengths. There's no desire for for both of us to be the same. We're very clearly different, and we really lean into the into the strengths of

Nitsan Mesika 13:18

each other. I love that there's no desire for us to be the same. No, doesn't seem that profound. And yet that is so much, I think, what we do in relationships where we're just like, why can't you just be this way? Right? Because that's how I am, and that would be easier, right? And so, yeah, so really capitalizing each other's strengths, okay, beautiful,

Janelle Orion 13:38

and I haven't heard you say the word, but there's like, There must also have whether you had it from the beginning or devolved into it, of like, patience, like acknowledging your differences, especially as your relationship structure has changed, which we'll get into right to be like, Oh, okay. Like he's not gonna, he's not gonna invite me in, but I want to invite Him in, and now he's saying no, but now we have to find this way, right? So, like, there's a dance, is what I'm hearing in your differences to get to the point of agreement?

Nitsan Mesika 14:10

Yeah, absolutely. It

Andrea Enright 14:12

also the weather. Word coming up for me is commitment. And I know nits at the end of our questionnaire, you said, you know, I said, Is there anything else you want to talk about? And you're like, I want to talk about the word commitment. Talk about the word commitment. So I'd love to hear more about that. From your perspective, the

Nitsan Mesika 14:26

biggest commitment that I have is to non rupture. It's not to not conflict. It's to non rupture. So we're committed to the children. We're committed we've created lives. And, you know, we didn't just have a baby or have a child. We have brought lives into this world, and that's a lifelong commitment. That's not a let's get them to 18 and send them off. That's not the point. And my parents are still such a source of loving support, groundedness and. Longing, even in my 50s, and my dad is in his 80s. I'm gonna just like little side story, because what you said about things are shifting and changing. We don't like to do things together. Yesterday, we had a conversation, and in that conversation, we actually had quite a bit of a rupture lately, or conflict, or whatever you want to call it. And I said, you know, like, even though things don't look great right now, one of the things that I really care about is for us to sit on the porch together and look at our grandchildren. And, you know, we're not romantic partners and we're not lovers, and we're not but we're parents, and we brought lives into this world, and we're creating a family, even if we're not partners, we're partners in that, and I want that to last. So wow, I'm getting teary. He said, Yeah, I don't know if that's something they can would be able to do right now, but I'm very open to that happening down the road. So right now, we have what we have, and we're working with what we're working with. We're not saying, hey, just like, that's not working. You go over there and I'll go over here. We're very, very much committed to our family and to, you know, our resources and to our elders at home and yeah. So commitment looks very different to me than the typical monogamous marriage that you know you have to sleep with this person, you have to do to sleep in this bed, and you have to behave a certain way. Do finances this way, and we have always been incredibly creative with the ways that we've figured it out and made it work, and it ebbs and flows. Yes, there are times that are hard. It's hard right now, and I have a lot of trust. I've been doing this for 25 years.

Janelle Orion 17:00

Brave hearts. The thing that Ninten is describing that I'm getting my heart is getting caught on is this idea of, oh, we made the commitment to bring lives into the world, and lives is a lifelong commitment. We all look at our lives for the extent of Manhattan all the different ebbs and flows, right? But this idea that, Oh, at 80, you're still a supportive, generative, holding a space of belonging for your children and grandchildren, somehow, nitsan is just really capturing that in such a beautiful way. So I just that's what I took away from that little section.

Andrea Enright 17:36

Absolutely so much goodwill. And I love the idea of, kind of, regardless of what happens you you can sit together on the porch and watch your grandchildren if you want. You really just making, yeah, making your own way and following that rule. And it's inspiring to me. And I'm currently getting divorced in love, and we still have a lot of goodwill, and are still good friends, and see each other quite frequently, and I still go to his in laws, to my in laws house for like, birthday parties and Christmas and all these things. And I'm just like, oh, maybe I envision, like, okay, we can do this for the rest of our lives if we want. Yes, you can. Yes, yes we can. And I hope, and I think we can work it out. But I think, you know, because it is just so going against the grain of society. There will be obstacles along the way that say, Oh no, no, you can't do that anymore, because there's another person coming in, right? You know, if he gets a girlfriend, or if he remarries, or if I, you know, I think it's just the perseverance right, to sort of navigate through those times and places where society says, no, no, you can't do that. And I think I hear you saying, yes, you can. Nietzsan, so have you had this agreement from the beginning? I just need a little more context. Like, no, okay.

Nitsan Mesika 18:53

The interesting thing is that when Yuval and I started dating, I was kind of an IT. I didn't know that I was prototyping non ethical, non monogamy. I didn't know that. I just was like, Okay, I've been in a serial, like, monogamous relationships, like one after the other. I got, like, marriage proposals. And I don't think that I want to do this. I'm like, I'm too young for this. I want to have, like, I want to have a pause on monogamy for a year. I was 23 I think, and so I was, like, adamant that I'm not going to get a boyfriend for a year. And a lot of people were hitting on me. But there was this one guy, he was 39 he was way older than me. He was very successful, very hunky. And there was in my little brain, there was no way he would want to be with me. And so I was like, I want to be with you, but not in this monogamous way. So we're going to, like, see other people. And he was like, Sure, no problem. And so inadvertently, I was in an ethical non monogamy for a year. It was fabulous. Years later when we talked, because that's not the man I married. He had told me that he was like, No, I was just, I was just happy with with you having a good time. And I never felt jealous, and it never felt bad. And I wanted to marry you at some point, but it was just cool. So we were just prototyping it. We were communicating. Well, we didn't know that this thing existed. We just did it. And then when I met Yuval, he was very solid. And I was like, Oh, I think this is, this is marriage material and but you've all looked at me, and he said, just know that we can be open sexually, because I don't get jealous, and even though I knew that I'm capable of it, I looked at him and I was like, I don't know if we have together the emotional maturity to be able to carry such conversations and such so I think that we're not going to we're going to be closed. And so it was so we stepped into monogamous, committed. I love to take it apart. So it's like we were financially fidelious. We were sexually infidelity like and we lived together. So a lot of the pieces that constitute a traditional monogamous relationship were there. We didn't get married. We were thinking of whether or not we wanted to have children at all. We took six years to get to that place, and we're talking Jewish and Israel, and early 2000s so it was like the parents were pushing. dAnd then we ended up getting married in New Zealand. We didn't even tell the authorities in Israel that we got married. So we were kind of like under the radar, and then we had our daughter, and then we had our son, and at this point, like many relationships, unfortunately, it became very sexless. And I am a deeply embodied human being, and I can't speak for you, Val but I'm sure that it wasn't happy, happy, happy for him, either. But we trudged along somehow. For a few years, we did not have any sex. He didn't have sex, and I didn't have sex, and it was treacherous. However, with everything that I told you about, what I know about relationship, commitment, children, family, partnerships, marriages. I was I was sitting there, and I was like, I don't know what to do. I love him. I love our family. I love the life that we have. It's really beautiful. And I'm not willing to to let go of my sexual life and my my passions. So at this point, a lot of women get divorced or open the relationship and or do all sorts of other things. But the truth of it, the truth of my being, wasn't we should be married people who just have sex with other people, and they come come home to our primary relationship. It didn't feel right. It didn't feel true. And so at some point, we sat down and I said, Hey, this isn't working, and I've been wrecking my brain about what to do about this, because, you know, the scripted solution that we're provided is that you split everything down the middle, you split the resources, you split the time, the house, the children, you split everything down the middle. And I'm like, and that's kind of like the textbook solution, but we're both much smarter than that, so I'm sure that we could tailor something that fits us better than you know what the government or someone else thinks is the best way to go, because there was a lot of goodwill, which I know that a lot of people who come to separation don't have a lot of goodwill, and that's just where it's at. But there was a lot of goodwill. And so I looked at him and I said, I think we should break up, but I love our family, and I love our children, and I love the life that we have, and I love the home that we have, and I just like, I don't know if I want to, if I want to separate really, but I want to separate as a couple, the most miraculous thing happened. He looked at me and he said, wow, have been struggling with the same thing, and I didn't know how to approach it and what to how to tell you that. And I was like, Right, wow, yeah. And then we were at the entrance to a wilderness that we did not know. And there is no script for and no one tells you. Okay, so when you're you're legally married, and you're raising children, and you you're staying with the finances, and you're doing all the things, but you're single beings that do single life, but you have each other as family. And no one had a textbook for this. There was no single married for Dummies,

Andrea Enright 25:24

yeah, let me just stop you for a second, like, because I'm thinking, Okay, I just really admire your bravery. And you're like, Okay, we're doing this. It's totally different, but we're gonna make it happen. Because you both agreed. Was there any nervousness around telling your families or how this would look in society, and how did you navigate that? I guess I want to inspire bravehearts listening like that, if they're facing like,

Nitsan Mesika 25:48

ah, we were closeted for a while, I'm not going to say. And then we, you know, put our Superman suits. And just like I had six year old and a nine year old at the time, we were in California, which I didn't want to live in, and we needed to we moved together. It took a long time, but we figured out that what the journey is going to look like if we want to move away from California. Yeah, there was, like, a lot of negotiation. There was a lot of trying to just figure it out. It was very unhealthy at the time, and Yuval was immensely supportive in my bringing me back to health and supporting the family. So yeah, it took a very long time before we really opened up first with our families, primarily his. There was a there was a period where Yuval wanted to come back and be together, and it didn't work out for me, and so that there was a lot of pain. There was a lot of like, on the one hand, as I said, it's practically impossible for me to not be me and not to do what feels right in the moment, and it with responsibility. It's not a frivolous thing. But on the other hand, it's a lot of a lot of burden. There aren't systems. There's no one to create what's needed around that type of being, you know? And so you have to create that for yourself. And you have to, like, yeah, invent the wheel a lot of times. So as for coming out of the closet, I will say that to some extent, I think my parents are playing ignorant blissfully. I think they're aware. I mean, I know that they're aware, but they're like, so how is Yuval, and how are the kids? And are you doing this together? I'm like, Oh, dear. But I also know that it's because, you know, my parents, they really just want what is best for us, and in their book, me being married in supported is safer and healthier, and they just want to make sure that I'm okay. Kind of it feels like so much love. And I'm like, oh, I'll just, I'll just leave it at that, because I don't want to just cause more pain for you. I'm good,

Janelle Orion 28:20

yeah, well, and right, and it sounds like you actually have what they want for you. It just looks different, that they might not understand that, that how it looks, but at the fact you're not lying to them. You are safe, you are supported, you are like your family is together, yeah?

Andrea Enright 28:37

And I really just admire how you're handling that as well, because, yeah, it can take a long time to get to that point of like, okay, here's what my parents can receive and here's what's not necessary to communicate.

Nitsan Mesika 28:50

Well, you're very kind to me. There were times that I was like, I don't Is this in a lot of integrity? If I'm like, it felt closeted. It really did.

Andrea Enright 29:00

So they think this, maybe you all's parents think something. But what happens when you you have a date or you have an outside relationship, and what has your relationship status looked like outside of your partnership with Yuval?

Nitsan Mesika 29:13

Well, there were different stages. There was a stage where we did a third, third, third. So a third of the time it was me in the house without him, he would go. He was working in California at the time, and a third of the time he was here and I wasn't. I'll tell you about that in a second. And a third of the time both of us were here, and so we were catering both to like, having our own time with our kids, having time together as a family. And one of the primary things for us was to not have the kids have to go back and forth between us. We were like, This is a choice that we made. Like, this is choice that we made about life. We are not going to now, now, like uproot their life and start sending them back and forth. What made more sense when, when there were times that we needed, like to have our own spaces, was for us to be in the inconvenience of going back and forth and still prioritizing the time that we're with each other in the house. So it took a lot of different shapes. There was a time that I was working in Durango and traveling every week to just have the weekend with my kids. Yuval was here 100% of the time, and I was like 5050, in and out, and never had my own time with the kids at home. Yeah. There were many, many constellations. There was a time that I was renting a place with a friend who's also relationship anarchist, and in a relationship that is similar to that, and we would tap into the apartment like it was him and I, and then his wife and Yuval.

Andrea Enright 31:03

Wow, interesting. And so

Nitsan Mesika 31:04

we've we figured it out. We at every point if, if I come in, or he comes in and says, Hey, this is difficult. I want to change something. Then we come into it and creatively try to find a solution. So right now, we're actually looking into Yuval having a new place, and so we're doing it together. We're thinking about like, what is the fine fine? What would the finances look like? Where would our son choose to be? Or how are we going to maintain the different places? It's still not happening, but it's something that is on the table, and we're doing it together, which is, I'm celebrating,

Janelle Orion 31:46

and what I'm also hearing, what is just great permission, that there is no one way, right? I'm guessing each of these phases might have been some of them probably, like, a year, maybe a couple of years, right? And then, oh, there's something's not working. You try, you're trying something new again. And each time along the way, your children are getting older, right? So now, when the decision when they were younger was like, you don't want to have to inconvenience the kids, right? If your kid now, and I forget how old he is, if he's is he 18 or 21 can't

Nitsan Mesika 32:20

remember, I have a 19 year old and a 16 year old,

Janelle Orion 32:24

19 and a 16 year old. Okay, so then, right? That's different than eight year old or nine year old. And so then they also get to be considered in a new way, 100%

Nitsan Mesika 32:36

and that was like part of the philosophy when we were raising them with radical unschooling, and it's always been like radical present moment. How do we show up to it, with our resources and our love and our heart and our wisdom? So now the kids are 19 and 16, right? And so we could say Juan is an adult, and I'm like, when do we become adults? Is it like a point in time that the government is saying or and when do we stop becoming in need of parents who love us? Doesn't make sense, you know, and so now my 16 year old, both of them, are very successful in school, and my 16 year old wants to go to a school in Europe, and we feel very supportive of him. My 19 year old is in college in California, and so I just came back from California, I was traveling to see my daughter and and we're talking about it like my son, if my son goes to school in Europe, I'm very likely going to live next to him for a period of time, and then my daughter would graduate, and she might want to come, and then he might want to come, and it's closer to Israel, where my parents are. So it's kind of like this. There's this, how do we work with what is in the most true way, and what is constantly changes. And so it's not a moving target. It's a target that is, how do we stay in integrity and love, in connection and family, while incorporating and accommodating everything that is happening and things are happening.

Andrea Enright 34:12

Your ability to be in The Now constantly and trust and sit in the uncertainty is just, it really is beautiful. Just there's you seem like you're just embracing it. You're just like, Yep, and it's gonna change again. And then we're gonna talk about it, and then we're gonna figure it out. Instead of kind of being like, Oh, why is it changing again? Damn it, right? Like, instead of being resistant to that, are there any relationship hacks or tools or things you know, even things that might seem strange to someone else, that you and Yuval have have decided on or you do on a weekly basis or a daily basis that help you stay in cohesion with each other

Nitsan Mesika 34:55

to move in Target. I will say that I have been teaching. Nonviolent communication. And for at least 19 years, at this point, the work that I do in in plant medicine and psychedelic work and in therapy has provided with a lot of capacity to be present, a lot of capacity to be truthful, a lot of capacity to express, express and but I think that the one thing is to remember that we speak different languages, and to make sure that I speak the language of the person listening. And so there were times, for example, that the only way for us to have conversation about really hot topics was via text, because being close to each other was more activating. And so for a lot of people, text is the is the most like activating inflammatory thing, because there's a lot of misunderstanding and the tone of voice doesn't come across, etc. But for us, it was like, the Huh, okay, now, like, now I can actually speak clearly, and I'm not going to activate you because you read my facial facial expression a certain way, and you wake up. A story about it. We work with what is that's the bottom line. I think, yeah, that's the bottom line.

Andrea Enright 36:20

Yeah, I love his permission to text, though, too. I mean, I think it often can cause problems, but I would say for me, looking at each other, caused way more because of what you referenced there nietzsan

Nitsan Mesika 36:34

About, if you pair NPC with texting, and you do it really well, you can actually send a message that that diffuses more than in flames. That's what I think.

Andrea Enright 36:46

Yeah, I love that. It's just super counterintuitive. But that's, that's what this podcast is often about, yeah, okay,

Janelle Orion 36:54

Ray price, what you just got there was nonviolent communication protocol framework and texting as the unconventional I have a question, nitsan, how did your kids handle the various living arrangements and relationships and like, you never mentioned if you at any point in these last like, I think it's about 10 years, did you have a significant other or he have a significant other at any point, and how that person, yeah, just kind of curious about how you navigated that as a family.

Nitsan Mesika 37:28

So those are multiple questions I'm gonna I will say this, as for the closet mentioned earlier, we actually didn't share it with my with my kids, with our kids, until they hit puberty, which took a minute. You know, we talked to our daughter first. She was really she was like, Oh, thank God. It was like, the reason we talked to her was, or with both of them, was like, Yeah, listen like we care about each other. We make it work. It's probably better than a lot of people who are married and together in some ways, not not saying it's ideal or great all the time, but and we want you to know that a lot of people, when they're married and together as partners or romantic partners, are very touchy, and it just looks different. And we don't want you to think that this model of relationship is what we wish for you. Maybe what you will want to have is something incredibly embodied. Our relationship is not embodied. It's not touch based, it's not snuggle based. So I don't want you to think that this is marriage. And she was relieved because she did not feel that. You know, this was a I think it's a similar sentiment to what I was telling about my my parents when I was teenager,

Janelle Orion 39:04

you're living, oh, I actually now I'm living what my parents were doing. And I get it,

Nitsan Mesika 39:08

yeah, and then I don't project that my parents have a loveless marriage. I think they love each other deeply, and I imagine that they have physical contact quite a bit, but I did not want my daughter to to imagine that this is the model of marriage that that we wish for her, or that we we want her to be, we want her to do her but kids only see the house that they raised in, you know? And then when, when we told my son he was more sad. And for a few years later, he was still hoping that he might have the dream of mom and dad, you know, in love and together and just like from the vantage point of my age at this point, I'm like, no. No, but what you have is solidity. What you have is a thing that is immutable. What you have is a thing that loves you unconditionally, would never drop you, and that's more valuable than whether or not we're having sex.

Andrea Enright 40:15

I'm really reeling from all the permission that's been given in this in this episode already, just you know, permission to text, permission to do it even more deeply your own way. Permission to keep a solid living situation. Permission to keep embracing the now and evaluating as things are changing, as the world is changing, as you're changing, as your children are changing

Janelle Orion 40:42

permission to be married and single, right? Like these are, you're creating your own definitions. As you said, you know, when the wilderness opened up in front of you, when you had, when you you and you all initially had this conversation that we like to say, you know, there's no map out here, and you have to create it for yourself. And that's what I that's what this episode was about.

Nitsan Mesika 41:05

And I do, I do want to answer, like, what you said about other relationships, because it came up a couple of times. I didn't want to read it. At the beginning, there was a Don't Ask, Don't Tell, kind of desire. And I think that it was because there was still, like, insecurities and fears of loss, or you know that it will all fall apart. The truth is that I still don't know whether or not Yuval has relationships. And the truth is that it doesn't matter to me. I have had a couple of more serious relationships that there is no language for this is what I feel. The truth has always been that my family comes before my romantic relationships, and that's it. And so it was never let me bring whatever fucking thing I found on the street and introduced it to my children, whom I've loved and protected and and basically curated an environment for them that is, like, deeply loving and supportive and and then just like, bring just anyone to them, I was Like, No, you'll have to prove yourself worthy of meeting my family. And so I have been incredibly cautious and conscious of being deeply respectful to my family and its needs. And so I did not introduce people before the relationship got serious just because I didn't want to wreak havoc in their lives. My kids know my dear friends in my community very well. I have a lot of radical, cool friends that come here and hang out, and they know my kids and that my kids have a lot of like, aunts and uncles, but it's still the same principle, which is, I want you to be worthy to meet my family and not come in and wreak havoc in in this thing that is working. It's kind of like, I don't know how to call it, but, but, yeah, I'm deeply discerning when it comes to who comes into their lives.

Janelle Orion 43:19

It still feels like you're choosing to put your family first, your needs and desires around romantic partnership. You're quite comfortable and choosing for them to be, let's say, secondary. And you know, perhaps right when the present, when the moment changes, and maybe all the kids are in school or out of school, and then you're like, oh okay, now here's a new moment, and something new gets to change for yourself, but until that moment, you're still choosing. You know it doesn't like seem like you're sacrificing your romantic partnerships, your romantic life, not at all like, Oh no, I'm in choice around all this.

Nitsan Mesika 43:57

I have lived a life, and I've seen all the things, and I've done many of them, and I am that kind of parent who talks about things, and I'm the kind of parent who discusses sexuality with my kids and and romantic relationships with my kids. I want the people that I bring in to be in their lives, to be to be consistent, to be constant, to be of the same commitment ilk. And it's not necessarily what I what I relate with or play with. Yeah, that's the core of it. It's not that they're not experiencing my relationship. They experience the ones that are solid,

Janelle Orion 44:41

and you're like, and the ones that aren't solid, I'm still gonna play with, yeah, I'm still gonna enjoy for yourself.

Nitsan Mesika 44:48

Okay? And do you know they've helped me. My family has helped me. When there were breakups and where, where it can really wreck heart sometimes. Sometimes, like breakups or so. Yeah, there was a lot of love here, and I'm really happy to see my my daughter, my child in a loving, committed romantic relationship. My kiddo is pansexual, non band binary. Their partner is bisexual, and we're just like, look at them.

Andrea Enright 45:28

I love it. I love it. The openness. And I also hear think something that I probably had to learn along the way, that I'm sure you have as well, but when you're zigging everyone else is. Zag, there comes great responsibility with that. Yes. Nitan, thank you so much for sharing so openly and so transparently for our listeners, I just, I think it's such a benefit to get be given this much permission. So I really, I really appreciate your honesty, and you're willing to be on the podcast. Thank you so much.

Janelle Orion 46:07

He said, I'd love for you to tell our brave hearts, you know, because of all the things that you do do, in terms of wilderness therapy and psychedelic facilitator, to let our brave hearts know just a little bit about a what that means, who you work with, and how they can find you.

Nitsan Mesika 46:20

So I'm in recovery from surgery, so my practice is a bit smaller right now. I work with my my own brave hearts, and I'm a wilderness therapist. I work in Boulder as a as a, how do you call it? Private Practice? Therapist, and I'm also a certified psychedelic therapist, and I do that type of work as well. In wilderness therapy, I work primarily with couples and families and young people who are growing in in families that are not working very well. And so I bring a lot of a lot of my own experience, in my in my wider range of understanding how this can work, into that type of work. I have a website. It's www, dot mitsan e mesika.com, I'm very available to be reached out. I do want to tell you, though, that my primary work right now is writing and I and I'm investing a lot in a sub stack that is called Healing Tekka, and in a book that is called the narcissistic trap, how Americans create the thing they fear the most.

Andrea Enright 47:43

So want to be clear for bravehearts what the exact URL is. It's www, dot n, i t, s, a, n, e m, as in Mary, e s, I K, a.com, so thank you so much, Nissan, thank you such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you, bravehearts. We love you. We'll see you next time.

Janelle Orion 48:16

Hey, brave hearts, looking for permission, work with us. Andrea offers permission coaching, and Janelle offers erotic wellness sessions. Follow us on Instagram, meet us in real life at permission to be human workshops in Denver. Subscribe to our newsletter. Do all this and more at our website, permission to be human. Dot live you.