Ep 122: Part 6/8, Polyamory, Parenting, and the Art of Staying Yourself: Designing a Relationship that Works Series

What if the real secret to a lasting relationship isn’t the structure — monogamy, polyamory, swinging, or anything else — but the willingness to approach with love? In this episode, Andrea and Janelle sit down with John Hoelle and Katie Wise, a Boulder-based couple married for 17 years who have experimented with nearly every relationship format imaginable. From open play and live-in partners to raising teenagers inside a radically honest household, their story is less about labels and more about curiosity, growth, and choosing each other again and again. It’s messy, tender, funny, and surprisingly wise. There’s a nod to play therapy, the book “Polysecure”, Tamera and the documentary, “The Village of Lovers.” You’ll hear: -How their childhoods--chaotic divorce and big-time care--impacted their own choices

-About the Burning Man that began their foundation

-The intense chapter of a household with three adults and two kids

-Navigating jealousy, attachment styles, and the myth that one person must meet every need

-Why community, coaching, and conscious conversation have been essential to their marriage

-Why the structure matters less than the love residing inside Learn more about John’s mediation practice at consciousfamilyfirm.com. Katie’s band can be found online at Katie Wise + Bhakti Explosion TRANSCRIPT:

Janelle Orion 0:00

Janelle, struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy, AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts. Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth. If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel less alone along the way, we got you

Andrea Enright 1:06

so John and Katie, what I am coming away from them realizing is this is just this ultra commitment to me, being mine, and you being yours, right when you're in a partnership, and I love the way that John put that really owning who you are and what you need to thrive, and allowing your partner the same grace.

Janelle Orion 1:34

Yeah, Katie and John represent our like poly category of how to design a relationship. That works, but it was so much more than that. There's a generational wisdom that's coming through their family. What they've wisdom from their family the children's like, just so much wisdom here for any type of relationship. And one of my takeaways was, like, we're all trying to get all of our needs met. And how do we just do that? And it's while swimming in love.

Andrea Enright 2:05

Yeah, while swimming in love. Yeah.

Janelle Orion 2:07

So it's quite an episode. Love to laugh.

Janelle Orion 2:17

Hello, brave hearts. Welcome to permission to be human. We are excited for our latest episode of season six, how to design a relationship that works. I'm Andrea, and I'm Janelle, and our guests today are two friends who are going to blow your minds with how the all the different structures they have tried and experienced while being in a loving married relationship.

Andrea Enright 2:45

So John and Katie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you. Thanks so much for having us. Yeah, I'm so excited to get into your bio. Here it is, like thick. It's like thick and juicy. It's like full of pulp. So, okay, Bravehearts, listen to this. John Holly and Katie wise, both 50 have been married 17 years. This is Katie's first marriage and John's second marriage. They've both explored monogamy a poly V which includes multiple partners and polyamory, they now consider themselves managa mish and poly adventurous, but are also recovering from six years where Katie had a second female live in partner, John, who is heterosexual and says he would probably just rather be swinging, is a divorce mediator and lawyer, while Katie, who calls herself a down the middle bisexual, is a voice coach and musician. They live together with their two children just outside Boulder, and together, they love to make music, parent, eat, run, Nordic ski and much more, right? Welcome. Welcome to permission to be human. Thanks so much for

John Hoelle 4:05

having us. Thank you so much.

Janelle Orion 4:07

So what I want to do is just brave hearts kind of give you a background of the different relationship formats that Katie and John have both been in prior to being married and to their current status. So John's first marriage introduced a Polly V, which was a man who was intimate with his wife, Jess but the three of them also played together and adventured together for about 12 months, at which point the V dissolved, and well as the marriage, Katie previously was part of a group of three couples who were very intimate with each other, and as a down the middle, bisexual person, she probably should have been Polly, but was serial mono, jumping from men to women until she and John got married.

Andrea Enright 4:55

Okay. Very well done. Janelle, deep breath.

Janelle Orion 4:58

Okay? Janelle.

Andrea Enright 5:02

So yeah, it's all gonna play out and be you're gonna see it more 3d as we go along.

Janelle Orion 5:07

Yes. So what we'd love to start with the question, you know, since we're here, you just, we've just read a whole thing about what probably some of our favorite hearts have never heard before. So what we love to first start is, what were you taught about relationships and Katie, we'll start with you.

Katie Wise 5:24

Awesome. Yeah, I was thinking about this so my my parents, I think, I think I was taught multiple things, but one, I think I was taught not to trust marriage at all. Both my parents were married three times each they divorced when I was three. They each remarried multiple times, and so I experienced a lot of change, a lot of chaos, a lot of step parents in and out of the picture. I didn't really believe marriage could work, and I didn't really think, especially for me as a bisexual, I didn't really expect to be in a long marriage. I did have one, one shining light. My grandparents, Ray and Harriet, had a really beautiful marriage. But I, even in my teens and 20s, I sort of, I couldn't really see the beauty of it. I just thought my grandmother was sort of like oppressed. And now I can look back and be like, they had a really great marriage, but it was, it wasn't necessarily, like a passionate connection. It was like this deep friendship. And then my other set of grandparents, my grandfather was completely abusive, so I think, you know, and as we navigated different relationship structures, it was like, Yeah, I wish there was like, grandma and grandpa and grandma's girlfriend, just like, there's nothing like that.

Janelle Orion 6:46

But this is why you're creating your own path, because apparently that

Katie Wise 6:53

our kids will be like, Oh Lord Yes, this is what we grew up with. Okay.

Janelle Orion 7:00

Thank you so John, for you.

John Hoelle 7:03

Yeah, I mean, in some ways, similar to Katie, my parents were also in a long monogamous marriage. They just recently passed away within three months of each other a couple of years ago. So they were almost 55 years married. And even though my mom was a little bit younger than my dad, once he was gone, she was just like, No, thanks. That was my dad's also my dad's second marriage, and I learned about his first marriage actually, just in, like, the littlest pieces. I didn't even know he was married previously until he was driving me to college at 18, right? And suddenly he, like, kind of drops this story, I'll be up like, what? And not only did I not know about it, but it was, like, salacious, you know, like he had been a jazz musician at the time. He later became a psychologist. He basically married a jazz singer this, like, sexy, you know, soulful singer who was also an alcoholic and tried to run him over with her car. And, like, so it didn't last too long, maybe a year, you know, year of decent marriage. And then, like, really, off the rails, and I learned about it. And then years later, this woman reaches out to me on Facebook, named Jody Holly, and I'm like, is this some cousin of mine, you know? And it turns out that's his ex wife, fifth, like, 50 something years later, she's, like, kept his name. We started conversations. I saw I like, learn all about, like, my dad from this, like, really interesting source. And to make a long story short, basically it's she sent me pictures from their wedding that I had never seen. And like, I saw my dad, like, so kind of lit up and passionate in a way that I just never saw in later time. So it's my interpretation of this, is that, like coming off of this traumatic relationship, he kind of choked off his his passion, and he married somebody who was like, much more grounded and safe, right? And pretty vanilla, you know. And I never saw them really like super affectionate with each other behind closed doors. I know they had a very, seemingly very good sexual chemistry, you know, throughout their life. In fact, one of my favorite stories ever is when I moved them into assisted living, and we're only there for a brief period of time, but my dad was recovering from a fractured pelvis, and the facility called me and said he's back in the hospital with pain because we caught them having sex on the floor for the for the third time, and we keep telling them. We tell them they should be doing that, right? I don't know why the floor was better

Katie Wise 9:45

89 and like 94 Wow,

Janelle Orion 9:49

oh, okay, bright hearts, let's take a deep breath there and pause on that for John's mom and dad giving us a new level of provision about how to break the rules at the.

Katie Wise 10:00

Assisted living, yeah, oh my gosh, oh my god,

Katie Wise 10:03

beautiful. Really,

Janelle Orion 10:04

like, they're like, they shouldn't be doing it either, they're not supposed to be doing it because of the injury, but they're still

Janelle Orion 10:09

doing it like, like, there's

John Hoelle 10:11

exactly so wow. I mean, like, I love and celebrate that. Outside of that, they were like, Yeah, I didn't find their marriage. It like, kind of like, was Katie was saying, like, I didn't find that marriage to be very inspiring to me, like that. I was like, that's not, you know, for a long time, I really didn't feel like that was the marriage that I wanted. And they were also kind of like hermits, so they were very, kind of, like, they kept to themselves and our, you know, our family was just very tight and small. And I'm an only child, right? That's one thing that led me, I think, to wanting to, I mean, not only explore having intimate connections beyond just like my one person, right, but I also live in an intentional community, which is sort of like somewhere between neighbors and family. Like all these things are sort of like, I think, a little bit of reaction to feeling a little bit like closed down, but, you know, just, I'll say as a last piece, that what I've come to really, again, similar to Katie, what I've come to really appreciate and about their my parents, marriage is what I've started calling they rested in each other's care. It was so clear how, how much they cared for each other and took care of each other. And so their nervous systems were like, you know, I mean, I saw them fight a few times, but like, they really, that's something that I now look to source that part of my marriage with, with that, you know, yeah,

Janelle Orion 11:35

I just want to pause on that phrase, one of like, resting in each other's care, and that the result of that is a relaxed nervous system, which could come across as boring, but also at a certain point in life you're appreciating, oh, actually, that idea feels really good, right? Of this relaxed nervous system. So, Okay, excellent. Katie, what did you want to share?

Katie Wise 12:03

One sort of lighthouse in my relationship, modeling was actually my, my mother's third husband, Bob, and when, when they met, he was, in essence, Polly, like he wasn't monogamous, and she wanted monogamy. And so he immediately was like, Well, I'm in love with you. So great. Like, I'll be monogamous. Like, he didn't, he didn't care about Polly in that way beyond just he was madly in love with my mom. He just had this very kind of libertarian, kind of, like, made his own rules life and and we had a lot of talks about relationships over these like he would drive me back and forth to college because he loved road trips and and he kind of just modeled this idea that like a relationship is two people, there's no rules outside of those two people, and the agreements that those two people make design the relationship, and whatever anyone else thinks doesn't matter. That was really an important piece for me to hear. And I did, you know, hear that like in college, which I think helped shape some of my relationship views. So so I would say that that third, third relationship on my mom's side was was one of the more inspiring, and specifically Bob, you know, and his philosophies around relationships, when his second marriage ended, they called it a janido, but they had, like a wedding backwards. So they took their families to Mexico, and they had a whole ritual together, and they remained very good friends, but they like, they honored the ending as a party and ritual. So it's just, yeah, he was just a very unique human. So I wanted to throw that in there.

John Hoelle 13:44

Yeah, his business card said hedonist.

Katie Wise 13:49

Bob Sheffield, hedonist, yeah, he was a nudist. He was a

Katie Wise 13:52

crazy, wow.

Katie Wise 13:56

He was he was a powerful human, yeah, I'm

Janelle Orion 14:00

guessing your relationship structure has changed over time, but how has your relationship over these 17 years inspired your own personal growth

Katie Wise 14:10

when we met, it was sort of a unique time. I had just come out of a really horrendous relationship, and I was I was looking for monogamy. I was looking for the father of my kids, I was looking to stabilize. I had been through open relating. I had been through a restraining order against an ex girlfriend, like I was done with chaos, and I was really wanting to ground with one person. And when I met John, he was, he was like, coming out of this 12 year, you know, difficult at times, sexless marriage. He was all about Polly. He made me read the ethical slut, like before our second date. You know, he was like, really preaching Polly. And that whole first summer was kind of an interesting it was an interesting thing because I just, I didn't think John was going to be the father of Mike. Kids. I didn't think he was going to be interested in the kind of relationship structure I wanted. And so I even tried to end it, you know, about a month in, because he wasn't even yet divorced. He had pink hair, he had no job, like he was kind of in this wild. He was trying not to look like any sort of catch or any sort of like commitment, you know, and so I tried to break it off. And he we had this amazing talk, and I'll like, I'll never forget it, because we're in, like, my little apartment in Santa Monica, on my futon couch and, and he was like, Well, can I just be one? Can I be in the running, like, you can keep looking for your husband, but can I just like be in the mix, and if you find your husband, then we'll break up. And if you don't like, we'll keep dating and and it was so gentle. It wasn't like, don't leave me, you know. It was just this, like, you know, keep looking. But can I be one of can I be in there? And I all summer, I dated all these other men, slept with all these other men, but I would like, come home from these dates and like, call John and decompress and like, it was just he felt like, almost immediately, like a best friend and and a lover. But again, almost because I didn't think he was the one. I didn't play any games in the relationship. I was totally upfront about what I wanted and didn't want. I didn't abandon myself because I really didn't think John was what I was looking for.

Janelle Orion 16:29

Right there is this, like, Oh, if it counts, then I'm gonna, like, put on all these masks and put on all these performances and presentations. But since it doesn't count, I'm gonna

Andrea Enright 16:39

be myself. Great beginning. What a great beginning. And John, you've had so many eras, pink hair and jobless. Very hot, very hot. Santa Monica, super hot. Saying, Hey, if I can be in the running, great. I love that approach.

Janelle Orion 16:55

So John, what about you in terms of, how has this relationship with Katie inspired your personal growth,

John Hoelle 17:01

yeah, what a great question. I think, you know, Katie, when I met her, her marketing system, like, my, my, you know, she told you about my marketing system at that time, I was like, yeah, definitely didn't want to, like, catch anyone. Don't look here, coming off a long term relationship, and her marketing system was, I'm bad at relationships, right? Which she said explicitly and, and, you know, to back that up was, like, I've never been in a relationship, really, longer than a year from, like, Burning Man to Burning Man, basically. And I

Katie Wise 17:34

would trade out partners at Burning Man usually, wow, come with one and leave with another.

John Hoelle 17:40

So, you know, this is what, this is what she's telling me, right? And I'm like, Yeah, okay, fine. And, but like, as time is going by, right? And, yeah, we're like, we're so honest with each other. We're so like, we it's the kind of friendship that you know you want to just check in on, like, everything about. And over time, I'm like, I'm not feeling this. Like you're bad at relationships thing. I actually think that's not true, and because I think this relationship is actually really awesome. And the other thing was that the way she talked about relationships was, like, the most inspiring, like, way I've ever heard anybody talk about it, right? Like, she sort of like accepted my kind of like philosophy around keeping things open and and free, but she would stand for her vision of, like, what monogamy could be, right, that it could be this place where you can sort of have a foundation to build a really extraordinary life. And at one point this is actually out at Burning Man. We were, we were just like, journeying together. And what she said was, I have infinite selves. I think that the trap, maybe, this is maybe jumping ahead a little bit, but I think the trap of, you know, the non monogamy practices, can be like, okay, this person doesn't meet me in some particular way, so I'm going to go look to connect with somebody else to get met in this particular way. And I'm not saying that's not that doesn't have any merit, but at the same time that that phrase that she said was sort of a bit in reaction to that, like, I can meet you in a infinite amount of ways, potentially, if you, if you, we let that happen or explore the potential for that happening, yeah, that's been that was just a big mindset shift for me that she laid out, and it's like, yeah, I'm That, to me, has been part of, like, what, like, a foundational kind of concept for our relationship is, like, we're going to explore meeting ourselves, even if it's in new, new ways that we we wouldn't necessarily have, have known or known to look for, but that is potentially there. And so that's, I think, couple of ways that I've I've really grown a lot for. Through my relationship with Katie.

Janelle Orion 20:01

And it sounds like you guys made it through that Burning Man you started and ended.

Katie Wise 20:06

I was like, I don't think you want to go to Burning Man with me. My history is really bad.

John Hoelle 20:13

That was four months in that was like, you know, we were really casual. And it was like, Yeah, let's, let's go to Burning Man and yeah, so unlike whatever, some other some other people's experiences, that's where we deepened. So okay,

Janelle Orion 20:25

so let's talk a little bit about your relationship structure and how it's changed over time, so that you've had these, like, rich conversations about being open, but also the value, the beautiful value, of monogamy as being foundational for depth and growth and creating a life that's actually, like, expansive. And so where did it go from there?

Katie Wise 20:45

Well, yeah, we came home from Burning Man, and we actually had a bit of a breakdown, because I felt like, I mean, we had been we had this journey, which included some psychedelics, and we ended up, like, in front of Alex Gray, like actual Alex gray painting, this painting, and he and his wife were there, and they were like, Alex, almost like, kind of blessed our relationship, like it was phenomenal. Like it felt like, Okay, this is my soulmate, you know, like I felt when I came home from Burning Man, like, surrendered into the depth of the relationship. And then John went to some party and slept with someone. And again, we hadn't officially said we're monogamous, but we had been like, blessed by Alex Gray, like it was like, I kind of thought it was unspoken that we're like, Soul Mates now, but John was still kind of like, I think he was also still kind of like, not, he didn't really want to go back into a monogamous relationship. So he was kind of testing the edges, and he felt terrible, like he felt it as soon as it happened. And there was this, it was, it was a big moment in our relationship, like he felt the hurt and the impact and and so that was kind of our discussion about, like, Oh, I think we are, you know, we are moving into a different level. And right from the beginning, you know, I think because of my, not just because of my bisexuality, and I would say, like, I really long for those connections with women. And obviously that's never going to be like, John's never going to be a woman. He's never going to have a woman's body, he's never going to have a woman's sensibility. And so if I want that part of me to be expressed, that's the one thing that's sort of impossible to express with John. And John, I would say, is kind of like he is wired, like he really likes groups, he likes witnessing me with other people. He likes like he's sort of like a group sexual and that's not possible with just me, right? So, like, we kind of always knew there'd be a playfulness and and so right from the start we would, we'd go to, like a play party. There was a cool gathering in LA called Friends, undercovers fuc. It was like the fuck club, and it was very like young and conscious and fun and, you know, and we went to that at least, maybe only once, but that was kind of a cool experience. So there was always this idea of play. We, pretty quickly, after we got married, had our first kiddo, so then there was a period of just like we barely had time to have sex with each other. And then slowly, kind of as we were coming out of the kiddo fog, John got on some app, I think it was called thrinder at the time. I think it's field now, and he started kind of, like, planning little adventures for us. And it was definitely not driven by me. It was sort of under the guise of, like, touching on my bisexuality. But I think it was really more like John's group, group desires. So we had sex with some couples. We had some really cool experiences with women, but it was all kind of like, not really polyamory, you know, it was really playful, mostly that people would leave, you know, before the sun came up, and we wouldn't really see them again. And and then fast forward, 2019, I met this. I have, I've always had a thing for drummers, and I've always had a thing for butch lesbians, really cute ones. And there was this woman who was both of those things and and I was like, oh my god, universe. It's too much like it's I can't resist. And it was just clearly not a friendship, you know, it was clearly a lot of sexual chemistry. And so at that point, actually, I'd been on tour and met a different drummer and had this big attraction. And John was like, Well, why didn't you do anything? And I was like, well, you weren't there and, and he, at that point, gave me a little business card that was like a permission card, you know, it's like, I, John Holly, give my wife Katie, permission to, you know, engage sexually with or without my presence, you know, sign,

Janelle Orion 24:41

okay, pause on that significant.

Andrea Enright 24:45

It's a hall pass, it's a hall pass, it's a hall basket, right? Which I love the concreteness of that, yeah.

Katie Wise 24:51

And then literally signed it John Holly Esquire, like it was, like, on his legal and I like. I don't even know if I put it in my wallet. It was, like, in my nightstand. It was just, but it was sweet. It was like, kind of this, yeah, permission. So when I met, JJ, like, I was just like, thought I was going to flirt for a week and just like, fantasize and move on with my life, and then maybe, like, the third night, because I was at this songwriting camp, and she was one of the teachers, and she was also an incredible teacher, and she just outright was like, Are you in an open marriage? And I was like, oh, okay, we're gonna actually have this conversation. And I kind of, I didn't know what to say. I was like, yes and no, like, yes. Conceptually, I have this business card in my nightstand, but we haven't really played outside. We've always been there together, and so it felt like I wanted to make sure that was current. And kind of, I told John I didn't want to come home with a confession. I wanted to come home with a conversation. And so I didn't do anything with Jay until John and I could really, like sit face to face and talk about whether this would work for our marriage at that point, you know, sort of 13 years in and and it was kind of a renegotiation in a way. And so at that point, I think we, you know, really became more poly in this sense. And I had a full blown relationship with her for intimate relationship for three and a half years, codependent friendship for another two and a half years, and then, you know, just broke fully with no contact for the last seven months. That's been interesting. And then I would say we're kind of in, what I've said is like poly recovery, because of some of the intensity of the places that that relationship pushed our marriage. But I think now I also feel like I'm kind of like, I can't necessarily just fit myself back into the box of a mono, non queer marriage. Like, not that it was ever, it was always an outside the box marriage, but it's like, I do still long for those deeper connections, and it's not really that's not really something that I would be met with swinging, for instance. So I don't know. I think we're in a, we're kind of in a re evaluation and curiosity place.

Janelle Orion 27:11

I want to deepen on one part there, because you said the describe the relationship with Jay, but I believe she actually lived with the two of you, right? And this is where this V was right. Was that I don't think Jay and John were together, but you were all living together with your kids.

Katie Wise 27:29

Yeah, she so we met August 2019 we slept together for the first time. She was then on tour for like, three months. She's a drummer, and then her tour ended in Colorado. So it was kind of crazy. So right around Thanksgiving of that year, we had our first, like, kind of weekend together, and in true lesbian fashion, she just, like, never left and and then we we moved into the house we're in now. We moved into a big five bedroom so that it could be like a home base for her, and with the idea that, like, she was on tour, you know, half the year, and we were on tour with our band, and she wasn't a part of our band, and so we'd be like this, you know, nuclear family half the year, and, like, a poly family half the year. And it seemed like, really brilliant. And that was December 2019, so four months later, covid happened, and all five of us were like in these walls and never leaving. And it got really intense, really fast.

Janelle Orion 28:32

Yeah, beautiful John, I'd love to hear your voice in any of this. I mean, she obviously, Katie just gave a great explanation of the changes over time. Is there anything you want to add to what she shared, or your experience?

John Hoelle 28:44

Maybe just to give some some more context around, you know, this last, this chapter, this, like five, six year chapter, where we all went into it, I think, with a lot of optimism, and, you know, really upfront. And, you know, her, Jay's sister, is Polly, and she came to it with a whole lot of understanding and awareness, and so it was, like surprising when the breakdowns came so fast and furious, in a way, I don't think she's really polyamorous. You know, she really was looking to have her person like that she could download with every day and regulate her co regulate nervous systems like, you know, very consistently. And that wasn't really available here, and we kind of tried to, like, you know, kind of get people's needs met all around. But it was that basic, fundamental kind of reality, I think, was a problem that made it sort of unworkable. And then the other thing I was going to say around what I kind of learned about myself during that time, because we didn't really get detail on my first marriage. My first marriage ended in a v where I was sharing my wife with another man, but I did maybe some casual connecting with some other women, but nothing. Thing that, like nothing that really went anywhere. And then that kind of happened again, where I was, like, it was this idea, like, this is a lifestyle and philosophy of not just like relying on, when I say philosophy, I mean, like not relying on, on a monogamous container to make you feel safe. Like, I don't believe in that, and I want to open up to having heart connections with more than one person at a time as well. What I learned about myself is that I don't know that I'm really wired that way either. Like, you know, Katie said, like, I I like being playful. I like connecting with a lot of people, but in terms of like, my like, deep, intimate connections, whether I just didn't really like and maybe I'm a little afraid of it, right? Because, like, what does that mean if suddenly I'm I've fallen in love with somebody, and, like, now I'm being pulled away from my main life partner, my kids, my business, like, the things I'm involved, it's a little scary for me, but I just, I also don't know that I'm totally, like, wired to do that. Like I sort of, like, kind of devoting my energies to my person. The connections I made during during this little six year period, they never really went anywhere for maybe those kind of compound reasons.

Andrea Enright 31:21

I just love hearing how you're like, I know you know what's best for you, John, and yet you're still completely open to allowing Katie to have this very different thing and need something that you can't give her. To me, that is the crux of of a relationship like this working because I just heard you really owning what you like best and also respecting and therefore allowing what Katie works best for Katie.

John Hoelle 31:50

Yeah, thanks. And that, you know, that's also where kind of the the logistics sort of were really tough, is that it was kind of like, well, how, how often did they want to get together, right on a regular basis. And I don't think there was mutuality on that. Like, I think Jay wanted a lot, Katie wanted a little, but like, she was kind of trying to move towards that. Moving towards started to be kind of like challenging for me, and part because not so much that I was like, I can't be by myself or something, but it was like, I'd be home with, like, the two kids. And so now I'm like, solo dad, multiple days a week. I'm like, That's not actually, really what I want,

Katie Wise 32:27

you know, we we use this analogy. I think it was Jay's therapist that used this analogy. But like, of bricks and like, you know, like, Jay wanted, like, four bricks, you know, and what, whatever that symbolized, like, how many sleeps a week she wanted, or all these but she wanted, like, four bricks, and I had maybe two. And so I kept trying to, like, find a third brick for her, and she kept trying to make three, okay, but ultimately, she was in deprivation, and I was in overwhelm, like, constantly, and she wasn't able or willing to get those bricks met elsewhere. Like she wasn't she we called her like, fire hose, like she loves one person at a time, and it's an intense love, and it's a, you know, and she does, like, both John and Jay are, like, deeply connected, like, if either one of them, you know, if John, like, worked abroad, or, like, you know, if either one of them or what I pictured her, I was like, Oh, she's a touring musician. Like, this will be perfect, because I'm available sometimes and not and but even on tour, she wanted to talk every day. And like, if I didn't text back in 10 minutes, she'd be like, what's going on? I'm like, Whoa. I'm like, I'm picking a kid up from school. Like, I can't text you right now.

John Hoelle 33:41

We learned a lot about anxious and attachment avoidant styles, which was like demonstrated in stark relief with the two.

Katie Wise 33:49

Yeah, I didn't know I was avoidant until I partnered some with someone who was anxious. And, you know, because John is secure and so and I might even be probably disorganized, but you know when, I'm with someone secure, it's like John has always and it's why, again, this relationship is, like, 20 times longer than most of mine. Is that he's always held me with this really open hand, you know? And I remember even, actually, it was probably back on that futon conversation. I said something like, or somewhere in there, I was like, Don't you just want me to be yours? Because I was with all these very, like, addictive, passionate, crazy people who, like, lived on boats and things, and they would, like, they would be addicted, you know, that's, that's was, what my type, you know, oh, you live on a boat. Sweet, I'm Oh, addiction, sweet, yes, just barely sober. That's my jam. And I remembered, like, saying this to John legal, don't, don't you want me to be yours? And he was like, no, like, I want you to be yours, and I want you to be with me however you want to be with me. And I was like, Whoa, that's really that has worked for me. When you say, like, what makes the relationship work for me as a avoidant abandonment issue, like slightly crazy, traumatized human, I really work well with someone who doesn't create a bunch of demands around me, but instead just makes, like, a big, warm, open embrace that I can't help but want to be in.

Janelle Orion 35:22

We have all these labels for all these things about poly or monogamy or vs or whatever the attachments are. I'm hearing is that you both were willing to, like, lean in, figure it out. None of it was clean. A lot of it was messy, but it was all permission. And I'm guessing it was even in the moments where, like, you know, Jay's needs weren't getting met, you obviously held her with love as well. Like there was just so much love. Like, I just like this, feel this, like field of love you're in, even when it's hard, it's and it's not clean and it's not structured. Maybe doesn't even make sense, but everyone's giving like, no one's getting 100% what they want, but no one's saying to anyone else you can't have what you want.

John Hoelle 36:07

Yeah, I mentioned my my philosophy a little bit, which is I sort of adopt from this community in Portugal that's been doing this, what they call love free from fear, right? And to me, it's a simple way of, like, coming home to that, like, the fearful responses that we have, you know, whether that's jealousy or, you know, worried about missing out on something or whatever. Like, they also say, like, fear isn't a part of love. Jealousy isn't a part of love, you know, it's, it's something different. And so it's like, that helps kind of come back to, like, Okay, what is actually love's response to whatever is going on?

Janelle Orion 36:47

Yeah, Tamara is the community that you're speaking to, and we had podcast Braveheart, just to remind you John Wolfson on here, who wrote the documentary and produced village of lovers, you can go find it and watch this documentary about this community that he's

John Hoelle 37:02

talking about. Yeah, super inspiring. Yeah, we know John. That's awesome. You know, from the very beginning, Katie introduced me to a life coach that she was working with, and I had never heard of a life coach. This is 2020, years ago. We're actually we're celebrating our 2020, years since we met this May. So that's the big milestone that we're celebrating right now. But I had never heard of this before, and I was excited to to kind of understand what this was and meet him, and we've been working with him ever since. So that's another, like, you know, in terms of, you know, talking about, like, pillars of, kind of, like, making relationships work, you know, I think having somebody that can hold in his words, right, like his role is to hold a vision for his clients that they don't necessarily even have kind of a perfect picture of, yet maybe consciously themselves. And so he's, he's been there to hold a vision for us as a as a partnership, as a family the whole time. And I thought of him a minute ago when you were talking about, like, holding space for everyone's needs and having that loving place. He talks about, like, not even to have conversations with each other if you're not if you're not in love, if you're not feeling the love right then

Katie Wise 38:15

his wife will actually stop him and be like, Are you in love with me right now? And if he says no, then she's like, No, we're not talking until you are.

Andrea Enright 38:23

Oh, I love that. That's awesome, but that's a great hack. I think that's to exercise.

Katie Wise 38:30

We kind of bring him everything. And so he was there right from the start of this whole kind of, what we called, like a heart experiment, you know, with JJ, and JJ actually about a year into our relationship, she started working with him, and still, and still does she actually was passionate about his work, and I don't think we would have made it past that year mark without him. So that's been really fascinating, too, and and he was also at some point, like, really architecting, like, this isn't working anymore for any of you. We're in like, a group class with him, and he basically told Jay and I, if we didn't break up, we couldn't stay in the group. Like he was, like, you can stay together, but you have to leave the group, or you can break up and stay in the group. And we and we did, you know, we were not just from his coaching. We were ready. I think we we started breaking up like June 2022 and we didn't fully break up until like January 2023 and then we still John and I had been planning to take the kids around the world for a year, and we and we still did that with JJ, even after we broke up. So it's a little insane.

Janelle Orion 39:42

Oh, wow, wow. Yeah. So okay, so that I'd love to bring the kids into this too, of how, you know, just navigating, sure, brave hearts who are listening are curious, right, how the kids what age they are, and how they've handled this, and like you. How you've introduced and lived it and held space for them in their journey. Yeah.

Katie Wise 40:05

So our kids are now 13 and 16, and so the playfulness they were never really privy to, because, again, it would sort of remember one point we were actually having threesome with this amazing woman. I don't remember her real name, but her handle on field was like, Scorpio something. It was like, awesome. And then one of the kids, like, woke up crying, and I had to, like, go into the other room, and they, like, I was like, don't do anything till I got back. They, like, stopped playing.

John Hoelle 40:36

We had to spend like, some time in the other room, like, kind of getting them getting I think, yeah, it was our daughter getting her back to sleep.

Katie Wise 40:44

Yeah, it was wild. So that was sort of, so the kids were definitely not really privy to any of that, and we, we sort of got some advice. So I think they were probably what they were, like, seven and 10, when, when I met Jay, or maybe even, like, six, I don't remember, Izzy was really little. And we got some advice from our play therapist, which I think was good in general, which was kind of like, to not really talk to them about it until they asked. And she also had a thing of like, if someone's not going to be in our life for more than six months, don't loop them in, you know? Because John was kind of like, I'm going to introduce them to this woman that I've been on two dates with, and I'm like, No, that doesn't feel right. But I think based especially on our son and his emotional intelligence, I feel some regret about how things went down, because he started to key in to what was happening, and he thought I was having an affair with Jay, and that John didn't know about it. And so when he finally asked, you know, we immediately had a conversation, all three of us, like John and and our son and me. But I don't know how long he was kind of living in that, and I was literally like, like, I have never lied to your dad, not once. Like, I never would, like, that's our relationship is totally based on honesty. And we did this whole thing from day one together. I would say the positives, you know, Jay was kind of like a big brother to Phoenix, because she's sort of like a 14 year old boy, you know. And so she and he were, like, probably the cleanest relationship in the whole house. Like they just would go, like, all these adventures together. And, like, indoor skydiving. And like, you know, Jade has a one wheel, and, like, she's just kind of, like, super cool. And when we did travel the world, like, the two of them went on, like, a food tour in Mexico City, and like, she got us all to learn how to scuba dive. And like, there was, so there's and now, actually, as we're navigating the breakup, or sort of the full energetic breakup. I've been really explicit with the kids and with her that, like, I want their those relationships to continue. I had the experience of, like a stepfather that was a massive part of my life for eight years, seven to 15, and then, like nothing for decades. And I think that's that was a huge loss. And you know, we're, we're back in contact. Now, he actually came to see my kiddo in a play this weekend, but there's some sadness about that. And so obviously, Jay wasn't like a full step parent, but she kind of was too, and she has a really unique and special relationship with each of them. So by about six months in, both kids, you know, we're fully privy. I remember, actually, because Izzy was so little that the conversation we brought her in kind of as soon as we talked to Phoenix, and she was like, so you and JJ, have sex? I was like, we do, you know, and she's like, what is sex? I was like, Well, and, you know, because she, I didn't even know what she knew about men and women, but she's, I said, you know, with with two women, it's like, you might have, like, your, you know, different parts of your body that feel really good to to be together. And she was like, like, your elbows. It's like, well, you know, maybe that could feel good. There's some other parts a little better, but you could start with elbows. So anyway, it was, and we've had sessions with our coach and the kids and like, you know, they've been kind of part of all of it, but I do think, you know, looking back, I wish I had just brought our son in a little more quickly, because he's so intelligent and intuitive, and I should have just assumed he would feel the energy Well,

Janelle Orion 44:30

this conversation has been so like, yeah, just enlightening. I feel like so many moments I'd love to ask, are there any resources like I've heard life coach is one. I've heard they used to use the term play therapist, which I'd love to have a definition of that. And are there any other books or resources that you recommend for bravehearts?

John Hoelle 44:52

So play therapy is it's for kids, supposedly, but it's actually really to, like, help parents get their act together.

Katie Wise 45:00

Other better. Our son actually said her name was Tasha medley that we went to, and he said, I go to tashas and I play with toys, and then Tasha teaches my parents how to be better.

John Hoelle 45:12

Parents. Wow, interesting, yeah, quick, quick sidebar from that we she did some intake questionnaire kind of stuff with Katie and I, and after like, talking to me for half an hour, she's like, Yeah, you you have some hypo arousal stuff from your upbringing, and that's why your son is triggering you me, because I went to therapy myself to, like, work through that, and suddenly my son's not triggering me anymore. He, like, he didn't change. I just, like, learned something about what was going on there, you know. So, yeah, that's play therapy.

Katie Wise 45:48

Okay, you know the book that was kind of our Bible. I mean, we read more than two which was, which had a couple interesting things. Like, I remember one of the analogies in there was about gardening, and, like, how, you know, if you're, like, gardening, you know, you might try to, like, have a little mint plant in a little pot, but then it, like, takes over a whole bed, right? And, like, the same with relationships, you can't, like, I could, I could be like, I want a comet, you know, I want something like that just fits, like, one weekend a year. But then, like, hearts are involved. And so, like, very quickly Jay became a much like I thought I was going to see her every few months for, like, a day and and then she was living with us so and I did fall madly in love, which was not something I necessarily expected. But then I would say the book that really became kind of our Bible was poly secure by Jessica. I'm actually looking at it. Jessica Fern, it's sitting, like, right on my shelf is poly secure, and then the fifth sacred thing, and then some book about prana. But, yeah, poly secure was super like, I would say the first half of poly secure is really for anyone, just in any kind of relationship structure, to learn about attachment and needs and communication. And then the second half is more kind of poly focused, but yeah, having an outside coach, you know, because with John and I, it's like we've always had, like, there's places we we can figure stuff out on our own, and then there's places where we're both fucked up. And if you want to expand your consciousness and transform as a human, become polyamorous, like, like, there is nothing, though, nothing agree.

Janelle Orion 47:30

We always say, like it was our biggest, my biggest personal growth catalyst, like, and now I'm using the things I learned in poly in monogamy, right? Because, really, all of those lessons apply to everything, but had to go through poly to get to the lesson somehow.

Katie Wise 47:46

No, and I mean, I didn't know, you know, just how terrified I was in relationships until we opened our marriage. And the fear that, like primal fear I felt when John would be out on a date, was insane. Like I was like, I was going to die, and I was fully in love with a second person and engaged in, like, a full blown relationship. But it didn't make sense, but just to have him, like, even express, like a crush, I was like, like, and so to work on, like, I'm irreplaceable, like the person that I am, and the connection I have to John is irreplaceable. I mean, not only obviously, am I the mother of his children and this deep best friendship, but like, even just the essence of me, there's never going to be another me if he meets some of his needs with someone else, and that's enlivening and joy filling for him. He's never going to replace me. Coming through that crucible, you know, was, I think, changed our marriage. Like, I feel like we just went and played last weekend at the scarlet ranch, and I felt so much more freed up because I was just like, I know this man is, like, he's my soulmate, like you can flirt with him, you can be sexual with him, like, I'm I'm his soul mate. Most people are so terrified to experience jealousy, and it's like jealousy is just another emotion, like anger, like sadness, like grief and it will let up, like, if you just move through it. It doesn't last forever, like any other emotion,

Janelle Orion 49:27

but it also reveals a lot. I mean, more than two. Is the book that was my Bible that showed me when I was like, in a dark shower, crying, trying to rip my heart out because it was so hurting so much. And I was like, I don't know what's happening to me. It was more than two that was like, and that emotion is jealousy. And I was like, what? So we learned somehow, and then, like, that emotion is what cracked me open to, like, a new definition of love and all the Mirage. Of what I have been taught and cultured to think love was,

Katie Wise 50:03

yeah, I was out to lunch with this friend, and he was kind of blown away by our relationship journey, and we haven't seen each other in 30 years. I actually dated him when I was like, 20 and he was 29 and and it turned out he had two affairs. And so I was just like, you know, like, we think Polly is so shocking, but so many marriages are are people are having multiple relationships. They're just not having them ethically. And so we seem like these kind of, I don't know, sluts or pioneers, depending on your philosophy, but, but people have been sleeping with other people since the dawn of time.

John Hoelle 50:41

Yeah, I mentioned Tamara earlier. I have yet to visit the community. I have seen village of lovers and read a number of books by some of the founders there. And they had a global love school at Esalen one year. And I was like, oh, things come back to Esalen every year, and I'll go another time. And then they never had it again. So I have yet to actually like participate in the global love school. But the things I've read and and some of the online course I have done some online courses, actually with them, and it's such a profoundly different way of thinking than our than what we inherit through our cultural stories about relationships. They're really exploring a different culture around relating, and that's that's held by a community, not just like, oh, this is a private affair. You know, that we're like, having to navigate ourselves. So they say something like, along the lines of, you know, it's polyamory is, is really impossible to do outside of embedded in a community, and so is monogamy, yeah?

Janelle Orion 51:42

Like being in relationship requires community, regardless what the format is, yes, yeah, love it. Oh my goodness. Thank you two so much for being so open, so transparent, for being both pioneers and sluts, and for just sharing that like, like love spills out of you, and that you're willing to be in the mess of it and the beauty of it and in the community of it. I had just found our conversation so engaging. So thank

Andrea Enright 52:11

you, yeah, thank you guys so much. Yeah, this has been amazing. You're very articulate, and really appreciate it. So thank you.

Janelle Orion 52:20

So before we close, I would love to hear the name of your band, so if anyone wants to go hear you guys perform. But then also John as a mediator for families and couples. Would love to have brave hearts be able to find you,

John Hoelle 52:32

Janelle, as you said, I'm a mediator for families, basically. So folks getting into marriage, a lot of them restructuring, right, getting out of a legal marriage into something different. And so I'm really grateful to be able to do that work, help them, help them navigate the legal landscape without having to, like, go to talk to lawyers individually, which is just, it can be a really damaging thing to go just even down that process, that that conventional process. So so, yeah, that's my work. It's we started our business about a little over 10 years ago in Boulder. We're conscious family law and mediation. So you can find us at conscious family firm.com,

Janelle Orion 53:09

conscious family firm.com, beautiful. And then Katie, what's the name of your band?

Katie Wise 53:15

Yeah. So I have a band, which actually John is my bass player and singer, one of the singers, and I sing and play keys and acoustic guitar and harmonium, and it's called Katie wise and bhakti explosion. And we can be found at Bhakti explosion.com and yeah, and we're streamed on all the on all the platforms. I'm also a voice coach, really helping people find their voice, both in the in their singing voice, but also their voice in the world. So I'm very love to help people heal their throat chakra and find their their true voice beautiful.

Andrea Enright 53:55

Thank you. Thanks, brave hearts for listening. We'll see you next time. Bye bye for now.

Janelle Orion 54:06

Hey, brave hearts looking for permission. Work with us. Andrea offers permission coaching, and Janelle offers erotic wellness sessions. Follow us on Instagram, meet us in real life. At permission to be human workshops in Denver. Subscribe to our newsletter. Do all this and more at our website. Permission to be human. Dot live you.