This is SO juicy! Janelle interviews Andrea on her NITTY GRITTY strategies for handling a polyamorous marriage. How much do you share? Are sleepovers allowed? Who meets who? Any sacred activities? What locations are off limits? There’s a nod to: the concept Kitchen Table Poly and the book “Opening Up” by Tristan Taormino. You’ll hear:
--EIGHT concrete hacks about Andrea’s 8-year journey through polyamory
--Why Andrea’s “need to know” wasn’t always helpful
--How she came to appreciate everyday marriage togetherness
--What Andrea learned about her nervous system
--Just how much love expands rather than contracts!--How to become fluid bonded (hit: its like petri dish)
TRANSCRIPT:
Janelle Orion 0:01
Andrea, hi friend, hi friend. And
Andrea Enright 0:03
to the brave hearts listening out there. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea
Janelle Orion 0:08
and I'm Janelle.
Andrea Enright 0:08
Get ready for some real time relationship. Woo
Janelle Orion 0:11
and wisdom from the front lines with occasional tantrums and tears about
Andrea Enright 0:15
how breaking rules, blurring boundaries and tossing tradition can be catalysts for finding your truth.
Janelle Orion 0:20
Let's debunk the fairy tales we were told as children and create a new map for life. Yes, Disney can go fuck itself if you're seeking permission to choose your own path. Freedom is the new F word. People and want to feel less alone along the way, we got you. Please
Andrea Enright 0:36
note, this is our side of the story. Our partners and metamours have their own individual experiences, and we do not speak for them.
Janelle Orion 0:50
Hey, Andrea,
Andrea Enright 0:51
hi, Janelle.
Janelle Orion 0:53
I am so excited to interview you for this episode, which is the poly how to for couples who are just beginning. We're just
Andrea Enright 1:01
diving in. Welcome to permission to be human. We are here to tell you juicy stuff about taboo topics. We're diving into poly how to and I feel you have so much wisdom to share on this particular topic.
Janelle Orion 1:16
And what prompted you to want to do this episode?
Andrea Enright 1:21
Well, I'm running into a few people who need help with poly. Like, seriously, like people I tried to date, for example, three in a row. That is a teaser for another episode, part three, of dating apps, where people are really struggling with the poly how to not the abstract theory and the experience, but actual tactics and strategies. We did have a man from our one of our last Brave Heart conversations, as he was at the door, like, hey, I need some tips. I need some real tactics and strategies about how to talk to my girlfriend. I need, yeah, I need, like, the nitty gritty. And so we're like, okay, we're responding to that. And as validating as it is, like, I love hearing that people are actually doing this. It's lovely to know that I'm not alone. But I really feel like people can benefit from mainly my experience, but a lot of my mistakes, too. And
Janelle Orion 2:19
who do you feel this episode is for
Andrea Enright 2:23
well, it's anyone who is partnered and or living together and you're each going out on separate dates as part of a polyamorous structure. I think that nails it. Polyamory can look very different. You can design your own way or brand of polyamory, but if you are going out on separate dates with different people than your primary partner, this episode could be for you, great.
Janelle Orion 2:49
And it looks like we're gonna cover go over six topics. There's number one, the Coming Home plan. Two, information sharing. Three time, batching four, public versus private, five, basic communication and then six, sexual conduct. It's such juicy content. So let's get started. Okay, yes,
Andrea Enright 3:15
I think I added a few edit a few more too. The L, the love word, the big L and the intermixing of your primary and your secondary. Okay, so
Janelle Orion 3:28
there's eight topics here. Braveheart, so exciting. Okay, so let's get started. Yeah, the first one, the Coming Home plan. What are some of the questions people should be considering?
Andrea Enright 3:38
Great. So when your partner goes out, your primary partner goes out for the night. Do you need contact throughout their night out? Do you want them to wear a cologne so they don't smell like the other person when they come home? Yeah, when they come home, do you want them to sleep on the couch or at the office or in another bedroom? Or do you want them to sleep there at their secondary partner's place? Or do you want them to come home? Do you need cuddled when you get home? Do you want them to join you in bed? Would you prefer they didn't join you in bed? These are all questions you need to ask yourself and have a serious like intentional discussion with your primary partner about.
Janelle Orion 4:18
And I would imagine that whatever your answer is that it changes over time as like a relationship could be developing with the partner and their metamour, yeah, I
Andrea Enright 4:31
will say for all of these questions, you probably need to ask them and address them every 30 days. Okay, great,
Janelle Orion 4:37
great, right as the rule of thumb, right? Live like, so this is like, real time living. That's what polyamory feels to me. It's real time living because it means like, who are we in the moment, and it can change frequently. Okay, so how did you handle the Coming Home plan? So
Andrea Enright 4:55
we had no idea about any of this, so we had to make the mistakes before we found solutions. But. It. So I had to realize, I'm like, Oh, you smell different. I'm like, oh, that's your girlfriend smell right? Like she smells in a particular way. We all have a particular smell. I was like, Okay, we need to fix this. He was showering before he came home, but still, there was a smell that would linger on his clothing, not his body, and because he used to come home at night after being being there. So easy fix. We bought some cologne. We put it in his car. He puts it on every time he gets out of his car before he comes in the house. And you know that was helpful for sure. And now you know, if he would forget, I would know immediately, right? There was a very distinct kind of smell Association, and it was pretty visceral for me, right? It
Janelle Orion 5:41
was so smelling her on him was hard, so you were trying to navigate how not to react to that.
Andrea Enright 5:48
Great summary, I will also add that people have different senses of smell. I have, I don't know if mine's high or average, but my husband's is low, like he does not smell things. And so this was not something that occurred to him. And I think, you know, in the beginning, he's just like, Is this really true? Like, are you, is this something that you're kind of, like, somatically inventing? Wasn't mean about it. He was just like, you know, are you sure I really smell different? But he definitely did. And I think this is just an interesting sense to explore. So, so that's that. As for contact, my husband originally voluntarily began texting me good night in the middle of his nights out right? So he would say, Good night. I love you. Hope you've had a great night, something like that. You know, heart emoji, kiss. And this was really nice. I mean it he was making a big gesture, and it showed that he cared. He was thinking about me, and I came to expect it. I will say it is like falling away now, and I'm fine with that, right? Like I didn't really notice when it fell away. So we've been at this for several years, and
Janelle Orion 6:56
this is an example of the evolution of something, but in the beginning, you really loved it, and so it worked.
Andrea Enright 7:03
It worked as for post date cuddling and sleeping arrangements. At first, I wanted him to come into the bedroom like this was tied to my codependency, like I felt like I needed him to metaphorically and literally come back to me, me, me, me, right? But ultimately, it wasn't the best solution, because it disrupted my sleep. You know, I found myself just waiting for him to get home, waiting for the light to come on, and you just have to try out different options, like we did that for a while, and then eventually we played with him sleeping on the couch, and so then it wouldn't interrupt me. Then I could still hear him come in, I'd still be thinking about it. Wonder how this date went. Eventually he did shift to sleeping at her house and coming home in the morning. And then there was another thing to work through. Right? He would come home in the morning. I'd be sitting on the porch in my robe, doing my journaling, and you know, we had a lot of difficult conversations on that on that porch couch. And I would just encourage you and invite you to ask yourself, what do I need? What does my nervous system need? And where's the need coming from? Is it your brain? Is it your ego? Is it your emotions? Is it your higher self? Also, how can you make requests instead of demands? This is an interesting difference in general, I think for a long time, I was like, No, this is what I want. I have to have this right. And it's just, you know, it's just doesn't work that way, right? Like I would say, This is my request. And sometimes it takes a while, maybe they need to think about it. Maybe you need to mull over it for a few days. And they might say no, they might say no. And ultimately, though I had to remember, realize and be proactive about taking care of myself in this situation, and not expect him to read my mind, that's the bottom line.
Janelle Orion 8:57
Because not reading your mind doesn't mean he doesn't care about you. Because, as you pointed out in the first section of this, he doesn't have the same sense of smell, so he couldn't have possibly guess what you needed. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 9:09
we're not the same person, right?
Janelle Orion 9:12
Okay, excellent. So much juicy stuff already. Next up information sharing, what should bravehearts consider
Andrea Enright 9:22
how much do you want to know about the date? How much does your partner want to know about your dates? How much does your partner want to share? What's your communication style? Would you prefer they tell you? Or do you want to ask questions? And these are heavy These are heavy topics? Because, I mean, it was hard. I mean, I feel like I just have a need to know. This is kind of my thing about anything from scheduling, you know, a soccer practice, to what my husband's doing with his secondary partner, like I wanted to know, whereas my husband was much. Better just kind of compartmentalizing things and not necessarily wanting to know everything. So I think first is coming to terms with there being an imbalance, like I wanted to know everything, he did not want to know everything. And at first I didn't like that. I was like, why don't you want to know? Aren't you curious? You know that bothered me too, so
Janelle Orion 10:17
it's crazy. There's a couple of things here, and partly because I know your situation right, that some you're someone who wants to know, he's also not someone who thinks to share. No, no. So not only does he not want to know, he also doesn't think to share. And so there's a there's a very big difference in terms of a communication dynamic and way of being that you're navigating on both sides of absolutely that. And
Andrea Enright 10:42
let me just add that it's not that he's just not one to share about this private date he had. He's like, he's not one to share about what happened at the family event, exactly right? Like, if someone turned up pregnant at the family event, I would have had to say, so is anyone pregnant? Like, that's just not something he does. I naturally share when I get home from anything sharing kind of I've actually realized in the past that sharing helps make things real to me, like I when I learn something, I immediately think about who I'm going to share it with, and I now take a step back and say, Oh, no, this just it's for me. I don't have to share it to make it real.
Janelle Orion 11:18
So I just want to, like, call this out Bravehearts, is this is one of the reasons why polyamory, we have found to be actually a catalyst for our own personal growth, because what you just described is a lesson for yourself that actually has nothing to do with anyone else, and you only learned it through polyamory and Through having to navigate situations with your husband. But it's husband, but it's actually about you and how you're communicating and what you need totally
Andrea Enright 11:47
so then second part is that my husband was always navigating between telling me too much and upsetting me. She naturally would then be like, inside his system, he's like, No, I don't think I better show that, because she's gonna freak out, right? But then we wanting to know. So just this dance, I mean, this years long dance we did, which was incredibly challenging. I mean, it's still kind of hard, you know, but we, but we have come so far, so you have to find that right groove between the personalities. Ultimately, it's this dance to between the right to know, which is not that conscious or clean, not to say there could be partial truth in there, but I was like, No, I deserve to know what's going on, not everything. I definitely was never like, tell me the details of how you made love. Nothing like that. But I felt there were certain things that I was like, I need to know that, because that impacts me or impacts our child, or impacts our schedule. And of course, we had different judgments about what those things were, and then the other side is the right to privacy for him and his relationship, like he's having a relationship outside of me, like it's not a threesome, it's a twosome. So that was important. Another thing is managing your own rabbit holes. So I often let my need to know speak louder than my emotional maturity. So I would get information first because I wanted it so bad, and then realize it was not helpful for me to know that. Like, great.
Janelle Orion 13:09
This is the vision in my head. Why do I know this? Right? Right? And also knowing you is, then you would react like you were he was doing what you asked, which is to tell you what you wanted to know. And then you were like, Fuck, I don't need to know that. And then you would react, and then that would and he'd be like, Well,
Andrea Enright 13:25
I don't want to share anymore. Like, right? My God. Like, how do we even get through this? So we also did not set good containers for talking in the beginning, in the beginning, like we had, it should be very intentional. You should find a neutral space. You should find a good time of day for you both. You should find privacy, maybe sit back to back, like own, your own shit. Know that all processing and feelings are valid and can be hard recognize how your sadness or hurt manifests, while my husband was really triggered by my anger, like he was very sympathetic to my hurt, right? So I tend to react and be angry in the moment. And he was just like, why are you angry at me? We've agreed to this. What's the what the fuck. But then, you know, when I was hurt, it actually wasn't easy in the beginning, but he learned to, like, have compassion for me and be sympathetic. So that's it. That's just something, a whole thing to unpack for you. If you find yourself saying, Why didn't you tell me this before? Why are you just not telling me this like that's a red flag, because I did it and then I watched my boyfriend
Janelle Orion 14:33
do it. So wait, the red flag is what that if you find yourself saying to him, why didn't you tell me this before? Meaning that he should have told you before, or that, what part is it the red flag that he didn't tell you, or
Andrea Enright 14:47
if you're reacting in a way that's saying, Why didn't you tell me this before? I mean, there that could be valid, but in general, I find myself, found myself doing that a lot, and he's like, I'm telling you now. No, he's like, When was I supposed to tell you? Like, I'm telling you as it's happening, right? But it always felt like it was too late, or he'd been hiding it when that wasn't actually the case, although sometimes, to be honest, it was. He wasn't hiding it consciously, but he was like, I think I'll just avoid that confrontation for now.
Janelle Orion 15:19
I think that dance again between two different personalities, ways of being, attachment styles. All of this comes into play. Is what I'm hearing here, and that right, like, Why didn't you tell me this before? And in his mind, he's like, it just happened three hours ago. I'm telling you as soon as I could, and were you? Like, no, I needed to happen the second you got
Andrea Enright 15:46
in the car, or whatever. Like, so there's, yeah, so it's not rational. So that doesn't work. And at the same time, though, it's important to note that this was not all me, like, this is him putting off telling me because he doesn't want to deal with it. So there was, what's the it there? Um, part of it's just like, it could be my reaction, but it could also be like, it's going to be a difficult conversation, even if I handle it beautifully, like, this doesn't want to deal with it. So,
Janelle Orion 16:12
yeah, yeah, not blaming either way. Yeah, what I'm what I'm saying, right that, that there's not actually no right answer. There's just two different answers. Yes, exactly you're trying to navigate. Who's Who's, one is going to win? If both of you are saying, Tell me as soon as possible. And the definition of soon as possible is actually different,
Andrea Enright 16:33
absolutely, and even now, I think as soon as possible means something completely different to me than it does to my husband. Yes, like just and as a matter of course, whether we're talking about regular, mundane shit or this. So I think ultimately what this brings up for me too is important to note that this is going to bring up. Actually, I don't want to project anything for me this brought up. I want you to be different. Why can't you be like this? And this is ultimately asking someone to be to have a different skin color, like, like, Oh, why can't you be black instead of white? Like, that's just ridiculous. Of that is obvious, and just to remember, you are not going to change that person, like, they might eventually change, but it's nothing to count on, and that's really not the point. It is learning to adapt both of your styles,
Janelle Orion 17:25
yeah. And that feels like it leads nicely into the next topic, which is basic communication.
Andrea Enright 17:29
So I think you have to, for me, I've learned I have to consider my nervous system. And this is probably only nervous system is only a phrase I started using, probably in the last few years. So I was like, Oh, my nervous system doesn't like it when this happens. So looking back, I think we would have benefited from my partner emailing me certain things about schedule or upcoming events, because then I would have read it. Had time to process, had time to kind of come back down after maybe being like, this is hard, and then addressed it with him. I think that would have been a great tool for us. And we tried it a few times, and it just like we couldn't get into the habit of it, you know, for obvious reasons, like we're coming together, and it's difficult topic. It seems like it should be in person, so it's a little counterintuitive. So that's one idea, but in general, you really do need to, as I mentioned before, establish a time to talk about this, when you're when there's privacy, when you're both in a good state, when you're not too tired, you know, just planning a very set container. Mm, hmm. Something else
Janelle Orion 18:38
I just want to put a spotlight on. What I'm hearing is we just acknowledge there's two different people, two different ways of communicating, two different expectations, definitions, all of that and that you ended up, you and your partner both kind of, in order to get better at this, got to it had to expect it's not gonna, quote, unquote, go well, right? These are hard conversations. There are gonna be blows. You might react he's gonna react differently. He might you might react loud. He's gonna react quiet. Both are reactions, and expect that difference and be okay with the differences, accept the differences and all the reactions that
Andrea Enright 19:20
come with it. Just remember that emotions are just energy. You have to move them through and embrace impermanence, right? Because I am someone who reacts big in the moment, and I also, I do need time, like, I don't get over it right away, but I also don't need, like, 12 hours, like, typically, if it's happening at eight in the morning, by noon, I'm fine, right? I've been distracted, or where some people process things at a much slower rate and a quiet rate, right? Some people get over things immediately, like, it just depends on your system, right?
Janelle Orion 19:53
So really, what I'm hearing and what you're describing here is learning about your own system. Yeah, ideally, your partner's learning about their system, and then you're saying, Oh, here's two systems that we are working with, right? Yours takes longer to process. Mine takes is faster. Okay, great. What's the container look like to accommodate both of those things? Instead of one way or the other way? Exactly? Better, beautiful. Okay, next up time batching.
Andrea Enright 20:26
Time management is a thing you I remember one article in The New York Times where a woman was responding or commenting to a poly article or within a poly article, and she said that poly people just have a scheduling fetish. And I kind of see her point, like, I kind of do have a scheduling fetish. I'm addicted to Google Calendar. It's like my favorite thing to look at. It's just something I like planning and organizing. And my husband also happens to be like the opposite, like he's just like, scheduling is not his thing. He doesn't love doing it. It's like a necessary evil for him. So this is just something that I recommend you set up if you're good at routines to to, you know, do at a certain time a couple times a week. Because I would just literally say, like, Okay, we have to Calendar, right? We have to sit down and calendar. He would say, not after nine o'clock, right? He doesn't want to talk about Google Calendar after nine. 9pm 9pm so that's one thing. In a world of apps, you do need to decide what channel you and your primary use, and which one you would use with others. I think it's important to have a separate channel it was for us or
Janelle Orion 21:36
I can just immediately see a few things you would avoid,
Andrea Enright 21:39
risks you would avoid, yeah, obviously sending people the wrong text, which never happened to us. We always had separate channels from the beginning. The other thing is that we got into the habit of like, silencing our phones, and so my phone sits on silent most of the day now, maybe because I have zoom meetings, my husband's a therapist, he can't have the phone on. So that makes sense for us and from a practical perspective, but I also really I knew what channel he was using with his girlfriend. And when one of those alerts would come on, it would be out loud, right? And I would hear it, and I would think, Oh, there she is, oh, there she is interrupting our dinner. Oh, there she is interrupting our conversation. And so it was just better for us to go on silent, and that really helped a lot.
Janelle Orion 22:21
Yeah, that seems like such as a concrete thing, and I just want to name Andrea and I use an app called Voxer, V, O, X, E, R all the time, and she and I, she's my only person. Essentially, you're my you're my dedicated Voxer channel. Oh, okay, yeah, forever. And then may our new brands not new, but our brand strategist, who's incredible is also on boxer. How many times have we messed up as far as here's our group Ted versus our one in one thread? And so if that had been any course, so that's just a perfect example. Like different channels? Yeah, it's dangerous. Are there certain nights when your primary partner wants all your attention.
Andrea Enright 23:04
Yeah, and it actually edged us towards scheduling date nights or sex nights, or, like, intimacy nights, which was something new for us, like, wasn't something we did. You know, we weren't intimate for a while, and then we were and then, you know, we would go through phases of not being but I do think it is good to designate sometimes that are free of the other right? So I'm not going to be looking at my phone tonight. I'm not going to be looking at messaging. We also carved out places in the house, and our house is really small. We have a front porch and we have a side porch, and where I would go and tend to, like, look at messages from my boyfriend, or he would go and leave boxes for his girlfriend. And we would also go on independent walks to do that. But in a small house, you know, we I didn't want to overhear him doing that, and vice versa. And so that was really important to just, like, say, Okay, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna go do this now I'll be back in 20 minutes. And yeah, I think it, I think inadvertently, that helped us also have our alone time.
Janelle Orion 24:08
So yes, I love these are like, brave hearts. I'm just so grateful that you have Andrea to like, guide you through some of this, because I feel she has navigated, I mean, the rough waters to be able to share this really quality information that comes down to the nitty gritty. And I have some of this we haven't talked about, so I'm just reading this and hearing some of it for the first time. So I'm like, Oh, I didn't know that. And you know, like, we know that if someone's you lose connection, if you're in a room at a dining room table or whatever, and your phone is there right now. Think that, Oh, am I being interrupted by my partner's partner? How activating that can be. And so what I'm hearing say is like how how to navigate and compartmentalize the opportunities for interrupting you. Connection throughout the day. And oftentimes we think, Oh, what are the nights that we're going out with our partners, with our with our boyfriend, girlfriend, concept, secondary partners. It's the secondary partners if you're in a hierarchical structure, right? Another term people for types of a type of relationship, but what you're saying is, oh, and then, what are the nights that I'm choosing to be with my primary Are there any other sacred activities?
Andrea Enright 25:30
Yeah, I remember being territorial in the beginning and thinking, like, my husband, I really liked to dance together. And I was like, in my mind, I was like, no dancing with her, right? Like, no, like, dancing just for me, right? Now, they didn't really go out dancing. It wasn't something they did. But then eventually they did, you know, somewhere and I was, like, uncomfortable. And ultimately, which, this really is just a code for how Polly is, and how you'll realize it is, if you continue it is that how he dances with me and how he dances with her are two completely different things, right? Because we're completely different people, and he has relationship with her is completely different than my relationship with him. And I also realized really this was something he pointed out early on I remember, is that we had all this common, mundane shit together, right? Which I could have easily and probably did a couple times, been like, she gets all this special time, and I get all this making dinner shit, thanks. Like, that's not that was that was hard in the beginning, and that's what we had to cry about, special time together. But I also realized that, you know, family dinners at daughter's basketball games and law events Saturdays, puttering around the house, planting flowers, going to bed every night. He was really good at reminding me to enjoy that stuff. He's like, how can we just, like, enjoy all this time we have together. We have so much time together. He's like, our percentage of time is so much bigger than what I spend with her. And yet all I could do sometimes was focus on, like, these nights he was leaving, right? But it was hard, because that mundane shit doesn't feel special, and you're just like, and we're navigating dentist appointments and taxes and family crises and so, you know, I used to, I eventually had compassion for his secondary partner, as he did for mine, in thinking, oh, like, you know, for a long time, she never got to wake up with him, right? She never got to have a slow Saturday morning with him. She didn't eat dinner with him usually. So it helped me actually appreciate the everyday so much more. I love that. Like, ultimately, I saw him much more than she did. So, Mm, hmm.
Janelle Orion 27:44
There's just so much there that I'm gonna give a little like, noble silence for the brave hearts to just like, digest everything that Andrew just said. And I also wonder, no, is, is it a legit request to say you can't do something with someone else, because that's ours.
Andrea Enright 28:06
I think that is definitely a very personal thing and negotiable within the within the container, like, you know, for a long time, and still, my husband never spent a holiday with his secondary partner and I never spent a holiday with my secondary partner. That was something that was a reserve, reserve for family. I'm trying to think if there was other times where I was like, No, you can't do that. Really. The fact is, their time together was limited, so they didn't have a lot of choices about what they reserved, but they were going to do, you know, they would occasionally go spend a weekend together. It's pretty obvious that, like, he wouldn't, they wouldn't go off and stay somewhere that we'd been together. They'd go to a different place, right? And so I think if that had, if there had been some overlap there, that maybe that would have been hard, right? Like going to the same vacation destination, right?
Janelle Orion 28:58
But it's interesting, because that brings us to the next question here, which is public versus private. What should people consider? Because, in a way, it's like the sacred activities are also, is one avenue of it, but the other is like, how out it's one thing. If you're like, Oh, I'm just gonna go to their house and they're having sex all the time, and that's just like, the vision of that, that's not that's actually not reality. It really because we remember Bravehearts, polyamory is actually about talking much more about much more about talking than it is about sex.
Andrea Enright 29:28
Well, you can set it however you want, like you might have different desires, but like ours definitely was separate relationships with lots of time spent together, sex being part of that. So I definitely was like, you know, no, no hanging out in our neighborhood. Like we have a small community, we have a school community, we know everybody on our block. Like, it just doesn't make sense, right? Like, there's a lot of neighborhoods in the city, like, find another one, and that definitely made sense. And then when, when. A community event. Did happen in public. It was disruptive and hard. Like there was a temple, like a play party, there was a birthday party, there was a funeral. They were few and far between, but when they came up, it was, I was like, and eventually it was fine, like you just got used to that. You just got used to that I did. Yeah,
Janelle Orion 30:21
and what about PDA? Is that allowed? I
Andrea Enright 30:25
think, in general, it depends on the style of the relationship. In general, I would say that when I was with my boyfriend, we were in a different city and so, like, 1000 miles away. So we didn't worry about that, like we could do that nobody knew us there in Denver, I would say I would have encouraged my husband to be somewhat discreet, certainly not to out us so much about the poly. I think it's important to be intentional about this. But in the beginning, in the beginning, it was about the poly because no one knew, but eventually that, you know, we shared this with other people. But there was a risk there of someone seeing him with someone else, clearly kissing someone else, and thinking, Oh, my gosh, he's cheating on Andrea. That happened to any it did it? Oh, that's right. I remember
Janelle Orion 31:15
someone thought that, that they saw my husband out with someone, and they thought, oh, I guess their relationship must be
Andrea Enright 31:22
struggling, right, right? So it's
Janelle Orion 31:24
amazing, the assessment. And yeah, they did, and they didn't say anything to me until a long time after, because they I had not told them that we
Andrea Enright 31:33
were probably and I also like just being out with someone, though, doesn't prove anything, because I have some memory of it happening to us. Where my husband was was, I want to say he was, like, out with his sister, right? And someone mentioned something to me, not like, not super accusingly, but just sort of fishing for information. And I'm just like, oh yeah, that's like, his sister, right? So easy to jump to conclusions there, right? Okay, the next topic, which I kind of alluded to, which is that sex may not be the thing that happens. As you just said, like sex is only part of the relationship when we're talking about poly, but nonetheless, what should couples consider when it comes to sex regarding sexual conduct? Yeah, so it's good to establish in ground rules. You know, where can sex occur with a secondary partner? Which house is allowed? Is the house allowed? What's the deal with STIs, who's tested how often? And then we have to talk about being fluid bonded and what that means? Yeah, okay,
Janelle Orion 32:37
it's great. So how did you handle this?
Andrea Enright 32:38
So for us, we knew that our house was off limits. We have a really small house, and it didn't feel comfortable for either of us, for someone outside to be coming in and for them to be having sex in our house. I think even if we had a spare bedroom, we wouldn't. That wouldn't have been the right decision for us. This is going to depend on kids and obviously other things. Well, we tested often. I would say, like during that time of that time we tested, we went to get a CI test once a
Janelle Orion 33:09
quarter. By that time you meant, like when you were both dating two different people, correct?
Andrea Enright 33:15
And eventually we decided on to become fluid bonded. Is that how you say it? I feel like, okay, um, it was basically meant like I was having sex with my boyfriend without a condom, my primary partner, my husband, was having sex with his girlfriend without a condom, and you and your husband were having sex, and me and my husband were having sex without, a obviously, without a condom. And so we were in sort of this fluid bonded situation where we were all safe because we're all having sex with each other, right? You'd all gotten tested right prior, correct? You knew what everyone's status was, and then you agreed to it, and we agreed to then, between those combinations, have sex without condoms, essentially unprotected sex, correct? And then if any of us had sex outside of that circle, then that would be protected sex. So basically all in the same petri dish, right? So me, my boyfriend, my primary partner, otherwise known as my husband and his girlfriend. So this was very slippery, no pun intended, and didn't always go as planned, obviously, because when you are making a decision about intimacy, when you're poly, you are not impacting one other person, you are impacting three other people, right? And so this came up quite a bit for, you know, we would have long time, so it's like very smooth, very smooth plateau, and then we'd have a rupture. And I think this brings up a good point in general that is very hard to plan meticulously when it comes to relationships or romance, right? For people who want. To keep your word about every single thing and say, Nope, these are the hard and fast rules you have to do this every single time. Honestly, that would never have worked for us. I just, I know that, and that may work for you. More power to you, like rules, like, I will never give a blowjob. I will never sleep over at someone's house. Like, we just, we didn't have a lot of specific rules like this, because we just found that too challenging. In the moment, things tended to change. Maybe we had a couple hard, fast rules, otherwise it was fluid. Life is about the moment and spontaneity, and so I had to trust my partner to make decisions. And worse, the harder thing was that I had to trust his partner, his secondary partner, to make the right or good decisions. I knew she was a good person, but I didn't have a relationship with her, right, so I hadn't built a bunch of trust about her. So I had to trust him to trust her, right? So
Janelle Orion 35:51
I'm curious when you say, you know there were things, you things, would go along for a while, because ultimately, in this particular case, we're talking about health and safety, so were the blow offs, because that a partner, that what someone in the in the in this polycule, that's another term. Would have sex, unprotected sex, with someone, and then not tell anybody.
Andrea Enright 36:14
I think it's the omission of information sometimes that not updating. Like, I feel like I didn't get updates as often as I would have liked. Sometimes maybe he feels that way too. I don't this is important to note that this is just our side of the story. I don't think this was him, like, being intentionally dishonest. This was just like, Oh, I forgot to tell you. Or maybe subconsciously he didn't want to talk about it, like, so an example of this would be that if a secondary partner is now looking so let's say your primary partner's secondary partner is not just dating your primary partner, but is looking outside, right? So maybe they're having sex with other people, maybe one, maybe three, right? At some point that relationship may become serious, right? And they don't want to wear a condom anymore, and you're like, Wait a second. Now there's another person in this molecule. I don't know them, I don't know their name, I don't trust them like and I don't know if they've been tested. So now there's a multiple layers of trust. I have to trust my husband, who trusts his secondary partner, and she trusts another partner. So that's a that's a long web of trust to get involved with,
Janelle Orion 37:25
right? So agree, 100% agree with all of that. And I guess my question was, but it Do you feel that that is something? It's not that you have to agree to that's okay, but you're agreeing to explain it so that everyone's in choice about whether they want to participate in that or not. So
Andrea Enright 37:46
what you have to navigate is, if you are primary partners, secondary partner has other partners, and at some point those two people become serious, you have to decide if it's okay for them not to wear a condom.
Janelle Orion 37:59
Right? Agree with that. That, right? I mean that. And that's where the hard conversations, the continued conversations that, that polyamory, not for the faint of heart, because this, in this particular area, we're talking about health related stuff. Yeah, we
Andrea Enright 38:13
really are. And, yeah, this makes this sound very complicated and hard, and it's up to you. Like, maybe you don't you, maybe you don't allow that. Maybe you're like, Nope, we're not doing that. Like, you can draw lines wherever you want, right? Yeah, and I'll
Janelle Orion 38:27
just in for me. Like I never got to the point of being fluid bonded in any of my situations, other than with my partner. Yeah, there's so many different ways to
Andrea Enright 38:37
go. Maybe just work on them all the time. Some people are just like, Nope, I'm just gonna work on them all the time. That just makes me feel all the time. That just makes me feel better. It's good. You get used to
Janelle Orion 38:45
it still feels good. Okay. So then moving on from sex to the L word, were you allowed? That's a very funny word, allowed to fall in love.
Andrea Enright 38:56
Mm, hmm, yeah. And I think Expect the unexpected here, right? Like, we definitely started out like, Well, no, we're not going to do that. And we both did it, right? We both allowed ourselves to do that and to fall in love with your partners, other partners, our secondary partners, yeah, for us, neither one of us were interested in intimacy at a deep level without the L word, not just that's how I am. Like, if some other people want to have sex, no love involved, great. Like, I know absolutely no judgment. Like, like, do what works for you. I will say, I mean, it happened, like, the first night, you know, with my boyfriend at the time, like, like, oh yeah. He's like, I love you. And I'm like, I love you too. Like, we didn't even, we didn't even have sex yet. We just, like, were so clearly bonded and had this kind of, this. Attraction. I think this was a redefining of love and an expansion of the word love, right? That was the first time where I was like, Oh, I love this person. I don't even know them that well, but like, there is a love, right? Is it the same kind of love that I have for my husband? No, it's different, actually, right? And it doesn't even mean, it does not mean that you love your husband less, no, right? And does it overlap with my husband's love? Yeah, there's similarities and there's differences. Yeah, they're just different kinds of love. And I eventually came to accept this, that love is expansive and you don't run out of love, but it is something to navigate. And I the hard part, the traumatic memory I have of it, is saying, like, Okay, please tell me when you use the L word, like, please tell me when that comes up, right.
Janelle Orion 40:46
In a way for me, this is where I again. This is another reason why Poly has been so expansive for my own personal growth. Is what you just said. It helped teach me that love is expensive, don't? I also agree that you, not only do you not run out, but there's infinite amounts of it. And yet, I also had the same like, Oh, my God, we can't fall in love with other people, because this is before I thought that. And I was like, Oh, I'm so afraid. I'm so upset. I'm so so afraid. And it was so painful to actually, especially especially if you're not, if you're the person on the receiving end of like, Oh, someone like your partner just told you that they love someone else as well, and you haven't had the experience yet, is that you're like, Oh my gosh. Like, something just got taken from me. And as Bravehearts, we recognize that that can feel that way until we move through what actually feels more true, yeah. And
Andrea Enright 41:47
this is our experience, like, with two people on board, like, also remaining committed in this situation and just yeah. There's no guarantees. There's no promises of anything, right? This was how it went for me. Mm, hmm, yeah. Okay,
Janelle Orion 42:02
so Did you ever meet your husband's girlfriend?
Andrea Enright 42:08
And did he ever meet my boyfriend? Did he ever meet your friend? So I went to coffee a few times, and have met my husband's girlfriend at the time, so we knew each other. We also had been in overlapping communities, so I knew who she was. I definitely feel like we respected each other. We'd communicated, you know, we created a channel of communication if needed, but we did not have an ongoing friendship, so we did not see each other consistently, and that that worked for us. He also met my boyfriend once, and that's good. I think that was nice to, like, put a name to a face, feel the presence. I encourage that, but it is just totally your choice, right, right? And that was also, I would say, like, you had been dating your boyfriend for years and years and years before he met right? Because he lives far away, right, and so, but I met her a little a little sooner. And I would, you know, we also did a medicine journey together, like three of you. No, no, I did a medicine journey with his girlfriend, you know, and by any setting, right? And that was very bonding for us. So, you know, this is just letters that you have to navigate yourself and figure out. There is a thing called Kitchen Table poly, where I definitely have heard of people doing this, where you know the secondary partner or girlfriend or boyfriend is around in the morning, right? Or you all get to get it go to dinner together, or maybe you have a holiday together, or they're co parenting your kids. This tends to be popular in poly news stories, like I've read so many stories about this, and this is part of why I wanted to do this episode, is that everyone talks about it that way, and that is not how we did it at all. Like there's there's a couple of meetings, short meetings, but no interaction between my my child, and our secondary partners. And although I do think another thing to navigate, it brings up an important last point, is that you need to discuss whether you want to reference your secondary partner, girlfriend or boyfriend in conversation, right? With your children, yeah, with your in laws or with your with friends, right? So Are they someone you can talk about and reference or not, and this is something we dabbled with. I would say I did more just because I'm an I'm talk more, and I'm external processor, and things would remind me of my boyfriend, and I just casually bring it up, my husband did this much less, but eventually he did that as well. And I think it we kind of broke each other in with it. In the beginning it was it was jolting, and we had some some difficult conversations around it. And you know, by now, it's no problem,
Janelle Orion 44:46
right? And then eventually you did also speak to it in front of your child, right about them? Yeah,
Andrea Enright 44:52
they Yeah. My child knew who those people were and knew her situation. Yeah.
Janelle Orion 44:59
I. Whew, wow. Okay, Braveheart, okay, we're gonna ask Andrea if she's any any books or resources that she recommends for couples starting out. But I just again, want to say wow to being able to have a first hand experience from someone who's living this life choosing to have a alternative relationship format that, and I really appreciated that you said this, that is as trending as Poly is right now. In lots of ways, we actually acknowledge that for lots of bravehearts listening out here, you're not choosing to be like in a poly relationship, like it's, we know it's not mainstream, but that even when you're choosing it, because every relationship gets to be different, even what you're reading or hearing about may not look what like yours looks like. And so Andrew's is one version of it. Every article you read is one version of it. But this is just a reminder that you actually this is the beauty of it too, is you get to make it look whatever way feels good and true for you and the people that you're interacting with
Andrea Enright 46:06
exactly. I just want to reiterate, this is my version of what happened. Is my interpretation. We all have our own story. I have utmost respect and love and compassion for my husband and his girlfriend at the you know, when all this was happening, and I know he also respected my boyfriend very much at the time. And it's challenging, but ultimately, like you know, everyone is a good human with good intentions for in my situation, absolutely. So as far as books and resources, I will say there, I literally went to the library, because I love libraries. And there was nothing. There was like, two books. There was, like, the word on the like, Dewey Decimal System, right? That's a label on the shelf. And there were two books. And I was like, Okay, I mean, no man's land, right? Like, this is like, a decade ago, yeah, eight years ago. And so there was two, there was sex at dawn, and there was one other book that I can't remember, but I did. So Janelle does a lot more reading than I do. Of not in nonfiction, I tend to read, like, the first 30 to 60 pages of self help books. And then I'm like, Okay, I'm done. I did read a lot of more than two, and I did read sex at dawn. So those are the two I read. I think Janelle will have a few more, though.
Janelle Orion 47:23
Yes, I do. You can also go to my website, Phil Wally live.com where I have my list of, I don't know, six or seven or 10 books on polyamory that I have they recommend as resources. But if you're just starting out, I do think opening up by Tris and trimeo is a great one to start with.
Andrea Enright 47:41
Okay, nice.
Janelle Orion 47:44
Okay. Thank you, Andrea. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with all of us, all of us bravehearts and so for those who are just starting out, I'm just excited for you to have to maybe make have a few less difficult conversations than Andrea did.
Andrea Enright 47:58
Yeah, email us with any questions, feel free to reach out, follow us on Instagram, a permission to be human, podcast and visit permission to be human. Dot live, slash events, to join an in real life Braveheart conversation, and we can talk about it. Thank you, bravehearts. Bye. Love you. Do you need permission to be human? You got it?
Janelle Orion 48:18
Listen, subscribe and review on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, learn more about us at permission to be human. Dot live you.
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