Our fourth In-Real-Life Braveheart Conversation recap is here! In this episode, we give insights on polyamory, monogamy, commitment, loss of libido, the Imagined Reality, sustainable wealth, intimacy vs. independence and spicing up your sex life. There’s a nod to 3-5 Club, Om Rupani and the RBDSMA intimacy conversation. You’ll hear:
--How being a Pro-Domme has impacted Janelle’s life
--Why being committed to yourself is the most important commitment of all
--Why you should find your business “why”. No, now.
--How to embody an “H” instead of an “A” in your romantic relationship
--What to do if your libido has gone missing (not what you think!)
TRANSCRIPT:
Janelle Orion 0:01
Andrea, hi friend, hi friend. And
Andrea Enright 0:03
to the brave hearts listening out there. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea
Janelle Orion 0:08
and I'm Janelle.
Andrea Enright 0:08
Get ready for some real time relationship. Woo
Janelle Orion 0:11
and wisdom from the front lines with occasional tantrums and tears about
Andrea Enright 0:15
how breaking rules, blurring boundaries and tossing tradition can be catalysts for finding your truth.
Janelle Orion 0:20
Let's debunk the fairy tales we were told as children and create a new map for life. Yes, Disney can go fuck itself if you're seeking permission to choose your own path. Freedom is the new F word. People and want to feel less alone along the way,
Andrea Enright 0:34
we got you. Please note, this is our side of the story. Our partners and metamours have their own individual experiences, and we do not speak for them.
Welcome to another episode of permission to be human. I'm Andrea and
Janelle Orion 0:54
I'm Janelle. Hey, Bravehearts, we see you. Mm, hmm.
Andrea Enright 0:59
We see you doing the easy shit and the hard shit,
Janelle Orion 1:01
yes, and really, we are in such awe all the time because we had another Braveheart conversation recently, and we just both left feeling like honored and with such respect for the bravery that everyone is crawling up to just face their everyday life, yeah, to be more themselves and to feel Mm hmm,
Andrea Enright 1:27
yeah, to surrender to the journey, and to remind you our Braveheart conversations are in real life. Events we hold at the goddess temple currently in Denver once a month, and they have been a smashing success, like we always even like, oh my god, that was amazing.
Janelle Orion 1:42
Yeah. Just like the vulnerability, the sharing, like the group learning and permission that happens. Our next one is November 14, 630 to 9:30pm and that one is for women only. We're not doing one in October, because we have our Braveheart retreat happening October 18 through the 20th for women, so an intimate gathering for anyone who is interested to feel in greater permission and sisterhood and laughter and joy and being held and fun and learn more
Andrea Enright 2:16
at permission to be human. Dot live. Slash events. Love to see you today. We're gonna honor that Braveheart conversation and dig into the topics that came up in that intimate circle.
Janelle Orion 2:29
So the first question was, is the idea of a monogamous, fully fulfilling, committed partnership in Unreal fantasy?
Andrea Enright 2:40
Yeah, this just like, hit me again in a different way, as you said it, because I think this does tap into the fairy tales and forever that we were taught that at some point did seem like, Oh, this isn't real. This doesn't really happen. But I'm not to say that it doesn't I think it can absolutely and I think it does for people every day, yeah? I think I know people it works for, yeah, for sure. Me too. It's hard work, for sure, as any relationship is and but for the right people, it can happen. As you know on this podcast, we do not advocate for polyamory. We just advocate for feeling alive and free. I think this from this particular Braveheart was a beautiful recognition of herself, and I really saw her as she like if she got vulnerable with this question, like, Can I do this or not? And
Janelle Orion 3:32
I would also say that a monogamous relationship for me was just as hard of a work as a polyamorous one, just a different kind of hard, but I chose the latter. But whatever is right for you, choose it. But there is something that came up in that, in that question, that we all and again, these these questions, when they're asked, Are Anonymous, and then we all just, not just Andrew and I weighing in. All of us are sharing,
Andrea Enright 4:03
yeah, that's true, and
Janelle Orion 4:04
that it was listening to yourself of what feels true. If monogamy feels true for you, great, then it can happen, right? If polyamory feels true for you, it can happen. But that like allow yourself to listen to yourself, to your inner knowing,
Andrea Enright 4:19
really important. And another Braveheart had a beautiful reflection, she said, and I paraphrase, I hear you fighting against the monogamy in some kind of reverse society way, like you're supposed to want polyamory, when really it's not your thing, you know. And that was just so interesting. I'm like, oh, that's just like, coming from the other side, because I think this particular Braveheart is swimming in the waters where polyamory is pretty accepted, and she knows people that do it, and she's like, Okay, I'm trying to do it. I'm trying to, like, you know, fit in. It's like, maybe it's not her thing, because I will say that polyamory was right for me. Mm. And my partner at this particular stage of my marriage, in my specific situation, having gotten married in my 20s, pre personal growth, having built trust and family and foundation with my husband, I have no idea if polyamory would have been right for me in a different context, when I was 25 when I was 35 when I was 40, if I hadn't had a child, if I'd had three children, I don't know like all I know is my situation right now and how it made me feel.
Janelle Orion 5:27
Yes, and I also honor that what you're describing is the spectrum, whatever we are, whatever our relationship format is, that is aligning with us in that moment doesn't mean we are choosing that forever relationship formats can vary. You can be monogamous with the same person that you are polyamorous with a year or two later, and then you can also choose to go back to being monogamous with that same person. All of it is available. My takeaway is like, what we want is available to us if we're if we're holding on to the present and not saying, Oh, this is what it has to look like forever and ever. So
Andrea Enright 6:13
it comes up for me as you say that, and this, this has happened before, is this feeling of commitment, right? I hear, kind of the past generation's voice in my head, saying yes, but some things you commit to, and there's value in commitment, and there's honor and commitment. So I think that is something that I I struggle with that No, I don't want to just change my mind every five months, you know. And so too much change isn't good either.
Janelle Orion 6:41
I hear you about the point about commitment, and I think it's a valid question to reflect on. And what are you committed to? Are you committed to the person to growing with the person, to growing yourself, to your own personal growth, to growing what the relationship looks like between the two of you are committed to that, or you committed to the shape and because, in my case, right, like a lot of people, like a lot of us, didn't know there was another option other than monogamy, right, married and monogamous was just the only relationship format I grew up with that I thought was out there. So I feel that committing to something that I didn't understand, but I actually still feel committed to the partner that I was with and I chose just the relationship format change like I don't feel like my commitment is but I've gotten undermined to him. Yeah, I
Andrea Enright 7:35
think you're right. I think the question is, what are you committed to? Commitment is beautiful, but really asking yourself, What am I committed to? And for me, that changed. I think I used to be committed to a marriage, committed to marriage looking a particular way. And now I feel I am committed to my own becoming my husband's becoming us, living with intention and love no matter what that looks like,
Janelle Orion 8:06
beautiful. The same person asks this question as well. I have asked my primary to close our relationship for two months, and he's very unhappy to stop seeing his girlfriends of a year, and is fully Polly himself. I need a break. Will this ever work?
Andrea Enright 8:25
This is really interesting, big meta model to recognize ourselves. And it is something I feel like I'm finally on the other side of. But it was a doozy. Let me explain. So remember Janelle And I used to start so many we used to leave each other these long boxes, which you've mentioned many times. I remember Janelle And I used to start so many of our Voxer messages, leading with our partner's name rather than our own names
Janelle Orion 8:54
and how they felt. Yes, sometimes I was
Andrea Enright 8:58
speaking for him. Sometimes I was projecting onto him. I was leading with his feelings, with what I wanted for him. I remember doing this even during a medicine journey in Costa Rica. And you'd be like, so what's happening Andrea? And I'd be like, I'd start with his name. And you were like, no, no, we're gonna start again. Like, so it's really hard sometimes to just tap into ourselves, right? We heard her in this question, focusing more on her partner's journey and feelings than on her own. It's tricky. It's a mind fuck. She's actually doing a brave thing by drawing her own boundaries here. Bravo. But what comes next is, what I struggled with too, is that for me, I would draw a boundary, and then I would point to my partner for not liking it, when really the responsibility was on me to change my situation because it was not right for
Janelle Orion 9:53
me. Sometimes these lessons, we learned them again and again and again, like this morning, okay. Oh,
Andrea Enright 10:00
but I wasn't willing, like I was too afraid, I was too worried about losing them, even though maybe losing them would have been the right thing to do. I was holding on to that imagined reality so tightly. Oh, my God, fuck you. Like this is like what Janelle said to me this morning. Okay, and I typed this.
Janelle Orion 10:21
And Braveheart, I'm just, I'm laughing because my heart is so open towards Andrea right now. But I'm laughing because it's just such a reminder that, like we learn a lesson, we think, Oh, we've got it, we've got this thing figured out. And then we, as you say, we go right back around the mountain. We're back to the same spot of the mountain, but a little bit higher. So new perspective. Maybe we've got greater capacity, but the same lesson is there, and that's what happened to Andrea
Andrea Enright 10:50
this morning, yeah. And that imagined reality is, as that Braveheart mentioned, like, well, you know, I want to be happy and old together. I see my parents doing that. I still get that. But then another Braveheart chimed in. Is like, actually, yeah, I see that, and I love to be doing that rocking chair on the porch thing. She's like, but in reality, I'll probably be sitting with two other biddies because her husband's died first. Or maybe he left me, or maybe I left him, or maybe he decided to separate. Like life has its own plans, and the chances of being truly, truly happy late in life with someone you're just not sure about now, just isn't that high? Oh, just like, let that sit. Okay, so I want to just explain this again. Janelle, can you do your take on this? Okay, yes,
Janelle Orion 11:44
it was such a hard journey to put myself first and to not care take my partner's feelings. You can ask for your desires, and if he agrees, then you have to trust that he can honor his own boundaries. But it's about knowing and trusting yourself, and once I finally got to the point of realizing I was honoring his boundaries and not my own, and I didn't even know what my boundaries were for a long time, that is when I was able to stand more solidly in the truth of myself. It's
Andrea Enright 12:17
just so crazy. I hope you're following bravehearts. It's like, it's confusing to me, but I do want to mention one more thing, just to bring this down to the concrete every day, and I want to go back to this imagined reality of being all together, you know, always having each other's back, that security. I mean, I definitely, oh, I mourn that. Like I don't think I'll have that with my current partner, and it's super sad to me, but it is this imagined reality, and I actually compared it in the Braveheart conversation, I think, to janelle's Probably chagrin, to like, keeping 25 wine glasses in the basement for that dinner party you have once every five years. Like, really, like, what are you fucking doing? Like the wine glasses that always are on the threading, like the wine glasses that could break any time. They're difficult to move, they take up a bunch of space. You're not really using them. You're just like holding space for them in your head so that you can use them when you need them. And they don't actually serve you on a regular basis. And I just, I don't do that anymore, right? It's like we, and actually we had a saying when we were in the Peace Corps, like, no more china cabinets. You know how, like our, our grandparents would have these china cabinets, China, did they? And they've never used it except on holidays or only special occasions. Like, don't burn that rose candle because it's only for special occasions, and then the special occasions was almost never come and so, you know, I'm mixing metaphors a bit here, but I think you're getting the idea, yeah. So there you go. All right, next question.
Janelle Orion 13:57
I've always been a very sexual person, until now, suddenly, my libido is fairly non existent. Now, what is it a sign wrong relationship? Menopause was my sexuality just a way to connect that I no longer need. This is so unfamiliar. I
Andrea Enright 14:14
love this question so poignant and common. I miss my friends too. I think first embrace impermanence. This is likely a stage. We're a different person every day, particularly with our changing bodies during menopause or perimenopause. Be gentle with yourself. You know, I really had some follow up questions for this person, but I couldn't ask her directly, but I was curious if, like the low libido is impacting anyone else in her space, just to get be curious about what else is happening in her life, and if this is not the phase for sexual activity,
Janelle Orion 14:56
the other thing, yeah,
Andrea Enright 14:57
I loved what, what you asked, too, was.
Janelle Orion 14:59
You know, ask yourself like, how do you define the word sexual? Is your definition too narrow? Are you missing things that are outside of society's perimeter and definition? How do you define pleasure? It can be eating a delicious peach, picking flowers, singing, playing tennis, but it also can be like caressing each other, holding each other. It can be laughing naked in bed together. What does sex really mean?
Andrea Enright 15:33
Yeah, and don't underestimate the impact that the rest of your life can have on your libido or on how you think about sex, like making small changes in your day, whether that be with your diet or your exercise or your routine, or taking a different route on your errands or sleeping in instead of getting up or walking instead of sitting like small things make a big difference and impact your whole system.
Janelle Orion 15:57
New question my sexual pleasure is very mental. It's in my mind, and I would like new mental ideas or fantasies, but I'm not sure where to find the material, especially in a house where I cannot successfully hide anything.
Andrea Enright 16:13
First, great awareness that this is in that it's in your mind, that you're noticing it's in your mind. And remember that it can live in your mind, great, and remember to tap into your body and your gut and your heart and your sex you know as you're experiencing this. And
Janelle Orion 16:28
if your sex is mental and you're happy with it and content with your sex life, great, there's no need to change it if there's nothing wrong. But if you are curious and would like to try other things. Then take some time to think about what those are. It could be erotica, talking to other friends about what else is out there in this wild world, or Tantra or BDSM that is conscious and expansive and simply something new. What I'm not sure from the question is, is this, is it a matter of curiosity? And then can you just that you're wanting something different, and then, yeah, how do you bring your curiosity to it?
Andrea Enright 17:04
Yeah, great. Totally agree.
Janelle Orion 17:08
Next question, I feel very comfortable in my current sexual routine, and I know what works. How do I get my brain to think that something new will be just as good?
Andrea Enright 17:17
Yeah? I mean, this is just like a common question for everything, right? And I said, you know, consider that I was happy eating captain crunch for breakfast and going maybe someone else was going to their job at core power yoga, or driving their Honda Civic in their 20s, and yet we wouldn't probably choose those things now, right? Like, I don't do the same things that I did when I was in my 20s, thank goodness I don't like sex is really the same way, and I think we have to treat it that way. We have to try new things to get out of our comfort zone,
Janelle Orion 17:45
right? And again, like, what I just said before, to the last question was, if you want to get out of your comfort zone because you're like, oh, there's something that's is yearning inside of you, then great. And if you're comfortable and you're happy and it's great, like, there's no need to change what's not broken. But if you're just like and can it be even better? I love the phrase like, you know what's the opposite of pleasure, more pleasure, right? Like, you don't know what else you might like even more. And so the idea of bringing a lightness into curiosity and a adventuresome spirit to like, let's just try something new.
Andrea Enright 18:24
I never heard that. Do you say that the opposite of pleasure is more pleasure? Oh, yeah.
Janelle Orion 18:29
I don't remember where I heard it. It's not my original phrase, but yeah,
Damasa Perry Doyle 18:32
are you saying that the original pleasure might be like, so boring compared to this next pleasure you're gonna get? Is that it? It's
Janelle Orion 18:39
that you can always have more pleasure. I would. What I'm not saying is, oh, if you're in pleasure right now, then for the sake of it, like, chase the next thing. But what I am saying is that it's like, even like, right now, right like, I'm sitting here talking to you comfortably, but now that I'm focused on it, I'm like, Oh, actually, my right butt cheek is a little bit, yeah, numb, so I'm going to adjust just that little bit. Oh, I'm actually more comfortable now because I'm paid attention to what's here. So the idea is that you can always like, Oh,
Damasa Perry Doyle 19:17
great example. Yeah, okay, love it. So next question, when and how will I make sustainable wealth just totally, totally different topic. I love this because money is just about as taboo as sex and polyamory.
Andrea Enright 19:33
And so we learned a lot of principles from the three to five club and Chuck Blakeman long ago, and that was a really important community and mentorship for Janelle And I. One of the ideas was make more money and less time by creating passive income. That is truly the path of an entrepreneur versus a solopreneur, like, how can you scale so that you are actually making more money and less time? I. Another principle was identify your strengths and the things you want to do and where they overlap, right? You might be really good at accounting, but not like doing accounting, right. So really identify those two circles and how they overlap in a Venn diagram, envision and map out your ideal lifestyle. And this is much bigger the way that they presented it. But I often use this phrase now. I feel like, God. I feel like I started using this maybe 1012, years ago, where someone said, was asking, Well, should I have a second child or not? And I was like, Really, it's not about the second child. It's what do you want your life to look like? And that is the ideal lifestyle, right? It's not about, Oh, should I start this business, or should I end this business, or should I delegate or should I open another location? It's like, what do you want your life to look like, and then go, come back from there? Yes, I would like to do
Janelle Orion 20:59
a call out to someone who, yeah, I know and who's listening. Who is the doctor? And I only know two women who said this to me when they were in medical school and then in residency. They looked around and said, what doctors have the lifestyle that they want love, and they chose. Both of them chose careers. One was in orthopedics or PT, and the other one is in pediatric aller pediatric allergies, where the there is no or there's no emergencies, there is no on call hours that are happening on the weekends. There's no like midnight, call Get me out of bed, come in. And in both cases, because they're not urgent, they were also able to work part time, like straight out of residency, they opted to work three days a week. And I just remember being flabbergasted because the fact that they had asked themselves what lifestyle they wanted. That was not a, I mean, I didn't become a doctor, but that was not a question I even knew to ask myself. No, it was always like, what job, what job, what job, what do you want to do? Yeah, and so I think that's a really potent one.
Andrea Enright 22:16
It is. The other principle is find a community, not just a coach to get outside eyes and perspectives on your business. And we both reap the benefits of this so much by having that three to five club community, yes,
Janelle Orion 22:29
and we also have our coach may right now who's also giving us outside eyes. So both are absolutely outside eyes are key, yeah, some other things are for me that came up were like, how do you define sustainable wealth? These are just kind of questions that I have, and what goals or dreams you have that your current situation is not meeting, and are there new ways, as Andrea just said, like new eyes on a situation that your desires could be met with the amount of money that you are making now? Yeah, and a point that I just want to make about passive income. One of my friends and very successful entrepreneurs, Ali Katz, has said to me that she's like, now, doesn't it's not she's poo pooing passive income. But she was like, do something that you love and make money doing it, and regardless of how much money that you're making, if you love what you're doing, then that is going to make a big difference. And so a lot of people were focused on the passive income, but then ultimately, still unsatisfied with life because they hadn't figured out what it is they wanted to do
Andrea Enright 23:40
with their love. Yeah, I would definitely say, find what you want to do first Yes, and then do the passive income. Yes, absolutely, yeah. Okay, that that does make sense. And one more principle that I missed is, don't forget to identify your why. Like, this is a non financial goal, something that cannot be checked off, cannot be crossed out. Like OOP did that. Like, what is your why? Like, I just off the cuff, like, My why is like, I want to help people be brave. I want to help them self Express. I want to be help them become their full selves. And it doesn't matter if I'm doing that with a client or when I talk to a magical stranger at an airport, and that is something I can do forever, because there will always be people who I feel like need to hear that and help. Help come through. Yes,
Janelle Orion 24:31
I agree. And then for me, my why is I want to normalize the need for education and skills and the areas of pleasure and intimacy so that we can have more fulfilling relationships like what I learned was so impactful to my homecoming to myself, to my heart, that now I want to help
Andrea Enright 24:50
others beautiful. Don't forget your why.
Janelle Orion 24:54
Okay. How does it look to fully embrace intimacy while keeping independence? Can they be. Combined, or are they mutually exclusive?
Andrea Enright 25:02
I do think they can be combined, and I think this is one of the biggest, most beautiful and complex dances of a partnership. This is part of why I've talked about the A versus H model, and I'll review it quickly now that when my husband and I got married, we saw some other marriages, and we had been conditioned by society about what marriage looked like, and we decided that we wanted to be an H, not an A. The letter A is two swing set poles melded together at the top and leaning on each other and connected in the middle. And that was how a lot of the marriages we saw were. They were kind of one unit, and there was a closed sky above them, and we knew that if one fell, the other would too, but they were connected. And that worked for a lot of people, but we wanted to honor our joint path as well as our individual paths. And so in an H there are two pillars going upward, connected in the middle, building new rungs of connection on the as they go and the sky is open. This guy is open exactly to keep growing and keep going. And to me, this is a good model of how you can build intimacy and independence at the same time. I think it takes a lot of patience, because there are going to be phases where there's less connection and you're more in your individual path, and then there should be phases where there's lots of rungs and less individual path. Yeah, it's a dance you have to you have to just keep at it. And
Janelle Orion 26:43
then another question is, you know, how do you define independence? You know another case of reaching outside the box definition that society gave us. Is it living alone, right? You could be together and having two separate places, or maybe even two different rooms, is it being able to, you know, fix the sink, to going to Burning Man by yourself? I think that there is ways that we think, Oh, we're not together if we are doing our own thing, but yet, if doing our own thing is giving us the confidence in ourselves being in our own energy that's bringing us more into our radiance than when we are interacting and relating on a daily basis with someone else, then we can bring more of ourselves to the experience, I
Andrea Enright 27:40
think that's a perfect segue into the intimacy perspective, because if I'm building intimacy with myself, then I can more easily build intimacy and independence with a partner.
Beautiful, yeah.
Next question was, what's your experience being a DOM sexually? What were your fears? What do I need to let go of? And Janelle has got this one.
Janelle Orion 28:11
I love being a DOM. The training that I got from Omar Pawnee and Lauren Harkness was phenomenal. It was my first deep exposure into BDSM and kink, and I've come to view BDSM as a spiritual path. I see it as the most misunderstood and profound healing modality that I've been exposed to, and being a DOM and a tantrika has resulted in me having so much more compassion for men. So when it the question here about like fears is, yes, I have security screenings in place, but there has not been one client that I have felt fear with, and that is a recognition like what I actually just feel is there is their heart, their sometimes confusion, their desire to be liked and desired and wanted, and what being a DOM has done is taken away the fear and built in so much more compassion. But what did it also require me to let go of, right? I also had to let go of any shame I had around pleasure and intimacy to that kind of healing.
Andrea Enright 29:22
Beautiful. Next question is, how do you determine if women are trustworthy, specifically to engage with sexually with me and my man, coming from perspective of Eros, discernment versus fear and protection. A lot of different ideas going on there.
Janelle Orion 29:48
And love this question, because this is one of the ways that Andrea and I became super close in the moment that I recognized that I was Polly I had been with other women before. For. But being with a woman who I thought of as a sister and a best friend, who I laughed with and had so much fun with whom I trusted, was so much more fun and nourishing. And you know, she and I were with my husband and the next many years ago, many, yeah, many, many years Yeah, many years ago, actually, the very beginning of our friendship. I mean, this is what I say like, and the next day, when we checked in, and then we moved on, we had work to do. We were already close business partners, and our threesome was not at all defining of our relationship, but it was very enriching to it. We allowed us to expand the definition of sisterhood to include what felt alive in that moment. We didn't stop ourselves based on what society would have said, but it happened, I think, one other time. And in general, our sexual energy is not something that's alive between us, but we allowed it to flow when it was and I will say that I already have the ability to deeply trust women, and I have deep trust. I had deep trust with Andrea, but I was already like in my system. So if you are a woman who struggles to trust women, then a threesome may be challenging, even if it is with a friend.
Andrea Enright 31:13
Yeah, good advice. I think years ago I would have and I probably would still do this a lot, like I would have stalked them, I would have asked a lot of questions, like, this is just what I do. Like, those are not bad ideas. But now I do feel like it's all an instincts. Thing like this is true when I meet a client online or on a zoom call, or when I did some online dating earlier this year. Mean, I definitely recommend a one on one meeting first to establish rapport on your own, one on one, for sure, breathe together, but I would I really follow my instincts now, and they just don't let me down like it's very you know, of course, occasionally I'm wrong, but in general, I notice how my body feels. I notice my energy of attraction or non attraction. And I would even advise having the rbdsma conversation, relationships, boundaries, desires, sexual health, meaning aftercare, conversation with this woman on your own and then again with her and your partner. Start slow, keep an open heart. Set intentions. Follow your body. Yeah, that's a good start. Yeah, okay, yeah, hey, that was our brave parks conversation. Lots of juicy topics as usual.
Janelle Orion 32:34
Yeah, thanks. Thank you. It feels so enlivening to us to to be in community as we just you know, we just you know, we talked about community like the we are building a community of listeners, but also of in real life, friends and colleagues. And it's incredible the amount of intimacy that can get. How quickly you can develop intimacy in a group like this, when we're talking about things that are vulnerable, yeah, and that helps us feel less alone on this journey, I was just doing some research on intimacy this past weekend, and because I was writing a book Bravehearts, and the question was recognizing that emotional intimacy and feeling connected to others is what can help stave off feelings of isolation and loneliness and mental health issues, and to being able to share these deep ideas, feelings, longings, desires with a group of strangers is actually really nourishing for the soul. Amen. Thank you, Bravehearts, we
love you.
See you next time.
Do you need permission to be human? You
got it? Listen,
subscribe and review on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, learn more about us at permission to be human. Dot live you.