In the next recap of their In Real Life Braveheart Conversation eventsJanelle and Andrea cover permission, finding our purpose, intimacy without sex, love languages, balancing personal passions with family obligations, polyamory and menopause. There’s a nod to Non-Violent Communication, the movie “Take This Waltz” and the NYTimes article “Six Books about Non-Monogamy, Recommended by Therapists.” You’ll hear:
--The benefits of attuning to your OWN joy amidst family chaos
--Why jealousy was so clearly a sign of our own codependence
--Concrete tips for talking to your partner about awkward stuff
--Why “compersion” is the your new vocab word of the week!
--How polyamory was as much about self-growth as hot sex
--A big menopause truth that you WON’T hear on Instagram
--How to address outside judgment for your personal life choices
TRANSCRIPT:
Janelle Orion 0:01
Andrea, hi friend, hi friend. And
Andrea Enright 0:03
to the brave hearts listening out there. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea
Janelle Orion 0:08
and I'm Janelle.
Andrea Enright 0:08
Get ready for some real time relationship. Woo
Janelle Orion 0:11
and wisdom from the front lines with occasional tantrums and tears about
Andrea Enright 0:15
how breaking rules, blurring boundaries and tossing tradition can be catalysts for finding your truth.
Janelle Orion 0:20
Let's debunk the fairy tales we were told as children and create a new map for life. Yes, Disney can go fuck itself if you're seeking permission to choose your own path. Freedom is the new F word. People and want to feel less alone along the way,
Andrea Enright 0:34
we got you.
Janelle Orion 0:35
Please
Andrea Enright 0:36
note, this is our side of the story. Our partners and metamours have their own individual experiences, and we do not speak for them.
Janelle Orion 0:50
Hi, Janelle, Hey, Andrea. We have another one of our brave heart conversations. We've been doing
Andrea Enright 0:56
a lot of these lately. We have you are listening to permission to be human. And we love giving brave hearts permission every month. Today we're gonna talk about permission to do your own thing, addressing your purpose. Talk a little bit about love languages. How do I get intimacy without sex? That was a really great question some people asked about finding the balance between having your own interests and balancing family and parenting and marriage. A little bit about menopause, about poly,
Janelle Orion 1:34
all sorts of things. Yeah, so. And just a reminder that these in real life conversations and online are happening on a monthly basis. And so if you've got questions about anything that you want to like open up to others, then this is a great opportunity.
Andrea Enright 1:50
Yeah, absolutely. So let's dig in. Yeah, first
Janelle Orion 1:54
question, what is a good mix of independent interests while balancing a relationship and parenting.
Andrea Enright 2:03
Yeah, so no, right balance. Right things are almost never in balance, but it's different for everyone. But in my experience, and so many women I've known, there's just so much guilt and obligation about that giving peace, like, oh, I have to do this, like I'm sacrificing and I have to put my child first. I have to put my husband first. I have to put the family first. And that's all well and good, because you love those people and you love your entity. But it just it seems that our independent interests do take a back seat often. And my golden rule is that if your outside interests make you more present and feel more nourished for the time you have with your family, then they are a good thing. If you are distracted by them when you then you were with your family. Well, then no. A few things I did early on that were considered rogue, I would say, by the other parents in my community was that I visited a local Airbnb every once in a while, just like three blocks away, and I stayed there for 48 hours. And those 48 hours felt like fucking 120 hours. Like I remember thinking, I'm like, oh my god, it's only one, like, I still have hours. And so that was amazing. And I think at the time when I told people I was doing that, I was like, you know, this is really nourishing for me. You should try it. Most people said, Oh my God, my husband would burn the house down. Oh my god, I couldn't stand to be away from my kids that long. Oh my gosh. I could just, you know, it's just too much time for me, and this is being a Braveheart, right? It's slightly uncomfortable in the beginning, because most people don't do it. You're not used to doing that, yeah? And it's uncomfortable.
Janelle Orion 3:49
I think taking time for yourself, right? When you're like, Oh, this is supposed to feel good, and actually feeling good can feel uncomfortable. Yeah, exactly.
Andrea Enright 3:57
That is so true. And this came up recently for me when I was working with someone with people pleasing a client, and I was like, okay, so how did it feel to, like, choose yourself and set and disappoint, you know, and have to say no, and she's like, it feels like shit. She's like, I don't feel good at all. I was like, Oh
Janelle Orion 4:13
yeah,
Andrea Enright 4:14
that's that's what happens. It's uncomfortable. So something else I did was I joined a choir because I love to sing, and it is like my favorite thing in the world. I could I think I could say that, like, I get so much happiness and pleasure out of this choir, and I go and I just feel more buoyant and more happy and more like everything's gonna be okay when I come home. I have a friend whose mom would go to a movie every Saturday morning when she was little. She's like, you know, in her 30s now, and I remember her telling me that and thinking, This was years ago. And I thought, Wow, that's so interesting. My mom certainly never went to a movie by herself, yeah, by herself. And I was like, That's so great. She's like, I don't really know, when I was little, I didn't really think much of it. She's like, that's what she did on Saturdays. I would do something with my dad at home. I was like, good for her, right? Like she was ahead of her time. And I think one benefit of the polyamory was that I would get to leave town, like once a month, and so I would have these, like, three days off, and I would just come back feeling most often, feeling rejuvenated, nourished, like I attuned to myself and my energy so that I could come back refreshed for my family. So, yeah, it doesn't have to be three days. It can be like two hours, right?
Janelle Orion 5:29
It can be like a movie. And, yeah, so one thing I just want to jump in here. You know, you started out with the question was around balancing. And you've, you've you've mentioned this, we've talked about this. There is a false assumption that balance means everything in every moment is in balance. Yes, totally. And really, what we're saying is that they're never in balance. Sometimes you're taking care of yourself, sometimes you're taking care of your family, right? But that over the overarching feeling you're going for is one of balance, but that not that things look like they're in balance in that moment. Yeah, that makes
Andrea Enright 6:07
sense. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. And I remember thinking someone pointed this out to me maybe 10 years ago, and I thought, yeah, balance is actually the false illusion, illusion. It's an illusion. Something else I've mentioned in the past is this idea of the oxygen mask that we all know right from the plane, they used to say, like, put your oxygen mask on before helping others. And even then, I thought my mom is definitely gonna be helping me first I didn't get it, like I did not get it. And now I think it's even worse of a metaphor, because it actually is saying to do that, and the primary time we think of it is in an emergency situation, when you're on a plane. And really you should be doing it every day, right? Every day. You should be putting your ostrich and mask on first, whether that's taking a five minute meditation in the morning or a walk, or having your specialty and your special mug, or, I love that, like it's an everyday thing, not an emergency thing. So just think about that.
Janelle Orion 7:01
So good, wise advice from a wise mama. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 7:05
and I think in general, my overall advice would be, most people I see and talk to, whatever you're doing, you could probably do a little more of it. In addition, you are modeling that you are taking time for yourself, for your child. And I do believe, because I took time alone, then my child now knows to prioritize her own downtime, or at least, I think it was, you know, I had some influence in that beautiful
Janelle Orion 7:29
Okay, so the next question is, what are your tips for balancing different love languages? So for those who don't know Bravehearts, The Five Love Languages. And this is by, is this by the gottmans? I don't know. Remember, okay, are acts of Sir and not I'm just not everyone, like, subscribes to this. So this is just, like a concept, like, based on their research, yeah, of talking to Christian based couples, I will name that. Oh, I didn't
Andrea Enright 8:01
know that. Yes, okay, it is a Christian root. Yes, I
Janelle Orion 8:04
learned that from we can do hard things. So, so even the names of these things, so there's so this grain of salts whenever we're hearing anything, but I think that there's a general, there's, there's a message that's here that can be that is useful, which is why we're bringing it up. Absolutely. Okay, so the five love languages are acts of service, physical touch, words of affirmation, gifts and quality time. And so recognizing, of course, that it's super common that two people have their different top love language. And the idea, of course, being that all of us probably have all of these at some point or another, but that the idea that one of these Love Languages is how we feel the most nourished or the most received or the most seen, yeah, yeah. So for me, my chat to our touch and quality time.
Andrea Enright 9:02
Yeah, no, just thinking about mine. I haven't thought about these in a while, and I think physical touch, and, boy, it's actually hard to choose. Like,
Janelle Orion 9:16
I definitely just one is, usually it's just one that's dominant.
Andrea Enright 9:19
Oh yeah. I mean, physical touch is definitely really high, for sure, yeah, but I feel like I get nourished from like a four out of five of them, right? Yeah.
Janelle Orion 9:30
So what I would say, so when you're balancing two different ones, meaning that, so in my case, when I was with my partner, like we actually both had touch and quality time both so that, in a way, was easier, you can say that, but it's still the learning that I had, and here's an example of how they can be beneficial. Is that when having hard conversations, yeah, I wanted to be touched, that we were holding hands, right? Like there was some physical connection. Helped me stay in my body so that I could listen to what he was saying when we were not touching. I felt very young, grounded. That's a maybe just an example of how it can be used or and, but I have other friends right where one's love language was physical touch. And the other one, I'm actually not 100% sure, but I think was acts of service, and so it was really hard for her to remember to give him touch, because he just, like back, rubs, holding hands in public, and not anything about like PDA, as much as just like the touching. She actually kind of had an aversion to being touched. So she had to really make an effort, yeah, to touch. And so, as you know, as you can imagine, like, you know, they've been married for 2530 years, like, in a really loving relationship, but they have to, this is a conscious I'm showing up for you in this way that you want, when it's not obvious to me,
Andrea Enright 10:56
beautiful, yeah, yeah. There's even something new to take away from
Janelle Orion 11:01
me. And so if you do have differences, then how do you navigate that one? I would say this is to give yourself reminders, right? And know that you likely need to be resourced at a time when, if you're going to be giving them something that they need, if it's not obvious for you, yeah. So with my in that example of my friend, right? Like, if she was like, exhausted from her day, wanting to, like, Yeah, hold space for her husband with touch was was harder for her. And it actually comes back to just holding space in general. You can almost think of it that way. I'm not. I'm just riffing off of this right now,
Andrea Enright 11:40
if you're giving from a love language, it's not yours innately that do you have the capacity for it? Yeah? And having you be resources an important question, yeah. And we say that the biggest thing that it bumps up against for me is, just as you said, that is talking to people who have three kids and have a busy household, and is that you don't really take time because you don't have the time you feel like to set up the container well, like sitting in a room, lighting a candle, shutting the door, adding music during a conversation, you know, for that love language when you're when You're communicating, touching, however the love languages look for you. And so I just want to encourage, like, just take two minutes to make sure that the person's resourced, that you're remembering what love language they like that. Just setting up that time when you're communicating just goes a long way. But I for years just like, uh, there's not time for that, right? And I didn't do it, and, and then when I did, I was like, Oh, my God, that makes such a huge
Janelle Orion 12:46
difference. And just to give another example, right? Is if someone's love languages, acts of service. And an obvious, you know, an obvious one is like, could you unload the dishwasher for them? Right? Like, that energy that five minutes can give them an hour, say, of energy in a way, yeah, because they feel oh, they feel so seen, they feel so appreciated. Totally. Yeah, that's so true. Okay, next question, currently, the only intimacy in my marriage is centered around sex. How do I discuss creating more intimacy without sex in my marriage?
Andrea Enright 13:18
Yes, such a great question. And I think the first thing I thought of was just, like, just changing up your communication style, truly thinking out, like, just a little bit outside the box. We really just get stuck in our butts and our habits. You know, maybe you leave a note on the mirror for your partner, or maybe you send them an email, or maybe you send them a funny or interesting text or loving text, or maybe you read them at the door with a hug. I started using way more emojis at some point, just to be silly and playful, right? And that just brings, like, a little lightness and smile back to the relationship. But I think ultimately, what this comes down to is summoning the courage. I mean, I remember there's some quote in a great movie called The Last Waltz, and it's about marriage, and it's about she says she's like, you know, it takes a lot of courage to approach your husband for sex, and it does, and it feels like it shouldn't. Feel like it's like, Oh, why is this hard for me? He's my husband. I see him all the time, and yet it does take courage, because you're putting yourself, like, in a more vulnerable position. So I would say, like, summon the courage not not to ask for sex, but just, like, just move, go in for a hug when he's not expecting it. And that is, it's gonna be a little vulnerable for you if you're not used to hugging all the time. This comes
Janelle Orion 14:41
back to, like, what I'm a huge advocate for, and like, my mission here in the world is just that actually, there is education and skills around physical, around pleasure and intimacy that we do not learn in our culture, that can be learned, right and how to have conversations about intimacy. Is a skill. And one of the things that I wanted to bring up is that it's you just named. Like, asking for what you want is hard and vulnerable, yeah. But also, taking a step back farther from that, is defining terms. What does intimacy mean to you, right? What does sex mean to you, right? And like, what does it mean to your partner, right? Because intimacy is a big term, and it might mean different things to you, like you just mentioned the word hug. Does that? Does intimacy for her mean hugging? Does that mean? Does he mean that for him? For some people, intimacy is sitting on the couch next to each other, watching a movie, not talking for someone else, they feel really disconnected in that moment. And so understanding what each of you mean when you say the word intimacy. And then, can you give examples of when something feels intimate to you that feels good? Because I find the examples are very useful in understanding, oh, that's
what you meant.
I didn't understand that. That's yeah, you meant.
Andrea Enright 16:03
It's amazing how we just get egocentric. I'm just like, well, this means this doesn't it? And then your partner can say something completely different, yes, and neither is right or wrong. It's just different interpretations based on our cultural conditioning and our family and what we've been through and what we consider and our past experiences,
Janelle Orion 16:19
right? So that would probably be, I would even maybe start with that if you want something that you're not getting is to say, let's set up a meeting, just to get a conversation, just to talk about what these words mean, and examples of when I did get them.
Andrea Enright 16:32
Yeah. And I think for some people, that's gonna be even harder than going in for the hug. So think about what is like, what's less awkward or vulnerable for you and embrace the awkwardness. As I think you said recently, you're like, it's gonna be awkward, right? Because you're not used to talking about intimacy, yeah. So there you go.
Janelle Orion 16:48
Okay, next question is to do with purpose, and how do I find my purpose? And how do I start that self inquiry?
Andrea Enright 16:55
Yeah, you know, and I think there's a lot of self care out there about self care advice, about journaling, about taking a bath, about taking me time, but ultimately, I would say the best way that I learned to go inward was spending time alone without input, like hands down, even if it's just 10 minutes, like sitting on the porch, no phone, no dog, no child,
Janelle Orion 17:25
no music,
Andrea Enright 17:26
no conversation, no neighbor talk, no nothing, because it's uncomfortable. Like in our society, we don't do that a lot, and a lot of a lot of our institutions and structures of life don't support it. So start there. Start by being alone.
Janelle Orion 17:42
I love that. Something that I'm doing, actually, right now, is The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, it's been around for 30 years, and the point of it is called the spiritual guide to higher creativity, I think is the tagline for it. She gives tools to unblock your creativity and to allow, essentially, life, force, God, force, source energy, to move through you. And the tools, she's got two different tools that she recommends. One is the morning pages, where you're writing long hand for three pages every morning when you first get up. And the whole idea of that isn't that that's your, like, life's work, it's just that you're removing any blocks or just whatever thoughts are in your mind. You're just like, allowing movement of this energy from your mind through your hand onto the page. And I hadn't even heard about The Artist's Way until a couple months ago, but that, that is what I recognized I when I was journaling for years, that's how I looked at it. I was like, Oh, I have so many thoughts running through my head. Yeah, that for them to siphon from my brain, through my arm, out the pen onto the page. It just somehow was a process of, like, filtering.
Andrea Enright 19:00
It's clearing the channel. It's clearing the channel because we have so much gunk in there. Yeah, it's not all bad stuff, but it is life swarming, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, beautiful. So the other thing I talk about with purpose in my keynote is, you know, the title of it is, forget your purpose and give yourself permission, right? So purpose has become this, oh, it's just like another box to check. It's become an achievement. It's become something we have to find. We better find it. There's so much pressure. Oh my gosh. What's your what's your purpose in life? And I really feel like a better place to start is permission. Is going inward and saying, What do I love? Do I love cake? Do I love ice skating? Do I love penguins? It can be anything, but there might be something for your childhood that you have always loved but were told was impractical, was too expensive, was didn't make sense in life, couldn't make you money. And I'm not saying to change your job and be. Come, you know, an ice professional ice skater, I'm saying, like, just move toward that in some small way. And when you give yourself permission in a small way, it leads to bigger ways. That's what happened to me. Purpose is also really future oriented something. Again, I heard Liz Gilbert say it's really so much about, like, what am I gonna do? Like, what's gonna happen to me? Like, how am I gonna change the world? And for me, permission is right now. Like, what can I give myself permission to do right now? As I was running yesterday, I noticed I was there was, you know, these beautiful, like, piles of leaves, you know, that are red and yellow, and I had the urge to, like, go jump in the pile of leaves, but I didn't do it. It just like, felt a little too edgy, right? It was like somebody else's yard, whatever. I'm sure they wouldn't have cared, but, but there's, I think there is a natural barrier in our society to doing this, because it feels out of place, little embarrassing, a little vulnerable. But what can you do today? When you think of it in the moment, what can you give yourself permission to do? I remember my mom was with my cousin when it was many, many years ago, and my cousin was visiting, and we were driving along the road, and we saw this some kind, I think it was like some kind of a cowboy hat in the road. And my mom pulled over, and she ran over and got it, we brought it in the car, and, you know, like, it was just, like a funny memory. But then when my cousin became a mom, she was like, I want to be a mom like you Donna, because like, you just gave your like, you just pulled over in the middle of that road and grabbed that hat out of the road, and it was such a fun thing to do. And she was like, that's the kind of mom I want to be, and that ultimately is just this kind of permission, right? This permission to be playful, permission to go off script, permission to do things that like are not in the plan. And I mean, I really strive to be that kind of mom too. Just like, keep giving yourself permission. Yeah,
Janelle Orion 22:01
beautiful. I love that. And I love that equation based on our last episode, which we just did, about what we don't want to be talking about. We don't want to be talking about the future. So if purpose is so future oriented, and the presence is permission, like obviously the present is going to ultimately lead to the future, yeah, at some point on its own. Okay? So interestingly, the next question has to do with permission. How do you deal with people having judgment about your non traditional choices, as in the school you chose for your kid?
Andrea Enright 22:33
Yeah, and this is definitely a challenge. This takes a lot of practice. It's helpful to have a partner so you can have a united front. But the bottom line is that it's hard. It's hard when people don't in our life, don't understand our choices, and my family does not understand all of my choices. I don't know if they ever will, but they still love me, and I still love them. I definitely had people in my family who were against my daughter going to an alternative school, which is Waldorf, yes, which is Waldorf. And someone you know in my family offered to pay me to send her to a Catholic school, which, of course, we were definitely not doing, not, of course, but for me, that would not have been right, and we knew it was the right thing for us, and we just suffered in judgment, right like and eventually it was forgotten, and she got over it. And you know, especially
Janelle Orion 23:22
because your kid was great, and obviously that didn't seem like she was being harmed.
Andrea Enright 23:25
Of course, many years later, she was like, Oh, I see why this was such a good such a good school for her. We knew what was best. It was our child. My heart goes out to you, just in compassion, because it is hard to be that pioneer, to do things different. I would also encourage you to, like, find a support group. Like, find other people who get it. Other brave hearts, yeah. Other brave hearts,
Janelle Orion 23:46
yeah, yeah. And my suggestion on this is waiting till you are what we call in your radiance, before telling family members about unconventional decisions. In your radiance means that you are settled, you're sure of yourself, you're confident that what you're doing is correct for you, for your family, for your child, even if you don't know the outcomes. And you can stand in that the strength and truth of that conviction when you're telling someone else, and in my experience, when I've done that, people have a hard time refuting or arguing with what I'm doing, because they just see they're like, Okay, well, I don't agree with you or you're doing, but clearly it's working for you because you're in such joy and in such radiance, and that may mean that you have to wait to tell them until you get there. Not every decision means you're starting out in your radiance and ratings. It took me years to feel in my ratings regarding being poly,
Andrea Enright 24:46
same, same, so hard in the beginning, and some people probably shouldn't ever know because they cannot receive it. That can be challenging, but, but you really have to discern, like who, who can receive this news and. To when can I do it in my radiance? Yeah, beautiful. So
Janelle Orion 25:03
the next question was related, which was, I don't want to feel guilty about having my kid miss school to shadow at a different school.
Andrea Enright 25:11
This is just one of those classic permission things, where I just learned at some point not to follow the rules, like I didn't have to follow the rules permission to do it your way. I mean, this is the heart of our podcast. I definitely used to be a big rule follower, and at some point I can distinctly remember some small instance where I was like, Wait, what if I don't do that? What's gonna happen? Oh, nothing, fucking nothing.
Janelle Orion 25:38
Like, what if I show up to the thing without my ticket? You know?
Andrea Enright 25:43
I mean, like, okay, not not a Taylor Swift concert, but like, you know, some small thing. Like, what are they? Are they really gonna not let me in? Like, most often that it's not the case.
Janelle Orion 25:53
And of course, I'm thinking about your daughter wearing, what was it like Santa Claus at Easter Santa Claus pajamas to an Easter egg hunt, yeah.
Andrea Enright 26:01
I mean, just like, oh, what's gonna happen? Basically, people are gonna look at me. I was afraid people are gonna look at me and be like, she's not even trying, like, I'm like, whatever. Like, who cares? Like, it just doesn't matter. And, but even even just like small things, like following the rules on I remember one of my fellow parents, like, I used to always read all of the school emails, right? And really, like, follow them to a T and then there just really became, there was a time when I just stopped doing that, and she noticed, she was just like, Oh, you don't know what's going on anymore. When I ask you, you don't know. And I was like, Yeah, I'll find out when I get there. Like, it just, it just seems like a waste of my time. Like, I don't, I get the gist, right? And plus, you're reading it, so I'll just call you and ask, like there's always someone who is paying attention. And obviously we have to be discerning about, you know, when to follow rules and when not to but anyway, just a little rant about that, okay, judgment. Little note on judgment. This person's asked afraid, like they're feeling guilty, and basically they're judging themselves for not doing it. So they're not sitting in their truth yet about it. They're like, Oh, I probably shouldn't do that. Take her away from school. What will happen if I take her away from school? And so she's worried about other people judging her. But ultimately, I knew long ago that I figured out long ago that my own judgment was what was fueling my worry about the judgment from others, and that is, like, could basically be like the best sentence ever, like the most true sentence. Like, if you just follow that, you're definitely gonna like, things are gonna get better if you if you notice when you're judging yourself? Yeah, because that's where it all starts, like, that's where you're like, when or judging yourself, and you're judging others too, right? But where is
Janelle Orion 27:49
it and where is the judgment coming from? Is the judgment of yourself coming from your own heart, or is the judgment of yourself coming from what someone told you you should or shouldn't be doing?
Andrea Enright 27:58
Yeah, it's just a really messy circle. And definitely, when I stop judging myself, I stop judging others, and when I stop judging others, I stop judging myself back and forth. Huge. Next question, okay,
Janelle Orion 28:13
are extra romantic physical relationships worth the communication effort they were
Andrea Enright 28:21
for me. So we started the podcast originally. They were the beginning of my personal growth, the beginning of finding myself. They made me appreciate my partner more. They helped me break out of my cage of culture and conditioning. They provided me with great pleasure. I fell in love with my body, I would recommend getting a poly therapist immediately. If this is something you want to pursue, because you are going to need some support. There's definitely a lot to navigate. Luckily, Janelle is a poly coach,
Janelle Orion 28:54
and she does that right now.
Andrea Enright 28:56
I mean, I could definitely, I can also recommend a polyamorous therapist. And I would also listen to our poly how to episode that really goes into the nitty gritty, from the beginning of dating others when you're in a committed relationship, and just lots of preventive measures like rules of the road that are going to help you along that journey. Yeah.
Janelle Orion 29:16
And my response is actually going to be maybe counter intuitive, which is in my experience, polyamory was absolutely one of my catalysts, of my personal growth and becoming but it was not about, as it turned out, someone else. Polyamory helped me understand myself better. It helped me discern what I what it was that I wanted it helped me ask for it. And so in the end, like, not knowing, right? Like, here's the scription, marriage, monogamous, and then going off script meant I had a lot of self inquiry that I had to. Figure out by allowing other people into the into my world. Man, well, which people do I want? What is it? Yeah, who is it? So crazy that is, yeah, bringing me joy and all that. So. So the irony is that for me, polyamory was actually about a relationship
Andrea Enright 30:15
with myself, yeah? I mean, same for me, that's what the personal growth is about. Like there were other people involved for me too, but, and it's funny, because, I mean, I did that eight years ago. Eight years ago is when all that started. And yet, six months ago, I started getting on the dating apps again and doing a bunch of dating and that also ended up being not at all about the guys. I mean, I did, like, went on like, 22 dates in six weeks. I got nothing for I did not get any kind of a guy out of it. No, no boyfriend, no relationship, nothing. In fact, I just practice being in my radiance and my with practicing my boundaries and knowing who I am and knowing what I want, knowing what I don't want. So sometimes it's just so
Janelle Orion 31:00
it's still a worthwhile experience for you. Absolutely outcome wasn't what you were expecting. No, it
Andrea Enright 31:04
was all about it's all about going inside. Amazing. Yeah.
Janelle Orion 31:09
Okay, so the next one, I'd like to learn more about open relationships versus polyamory. What is the difference? And how does someone start that conversation? This
Andrea Enright 31:16
is somewhat a matter of preference. I feel like polyamorous is the word that resonated most with me when we started it. Some people call this open. Some people think of open as being more sexual. Something people think of poly as being more sexual. There is no one way to do polyamory, and starting that conversation certainly isn't for the faint of heart. But I do think that starting out with a lot of I statements, which is, what is it? Nvoc, did you say the other day? Instead of NVC, violent communication, nonviolent
Janelle Orion 31:50
communication, it's
Andrea Enright 31:51
NVC, Oh, I thought you said NVC the other day. I like, and I thought, I'm like, Oh, I have it wrong. Okay, NVC is a great communication tool for starting these, these conversations, because it really teaches you to go inside and say, I feel this way, rather than saying you're doing this wrong or I don't like the way you know you're touching me or whatever, I would also say setting time aside speaking back to back, really helpful for me, because I really react to other people's facial expressions, and I have big facial expressions, as Janelle mentioned earlier, like having touch during that conversation really important. If that works for you, yes, whatever your love language is attuned to it, and taking things slow, like starting small, Curiosity is a great place to start.
Janelle Orion 32:31
Yeah, oh, I love that. With curiosity and obviously researching, yeah, there's resources. The book that I started with was opening up by Tristan toromino, and one of her the catch phrases in there that really resonated with me was, you move at the speed of the slowest person. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 32:49
remember that
Janelle Orion 32:50
I would differentiate something that you said, which was, to me, an open relationship is the bigger umbrella term, and that polyamory is a subset of open relationship like we get there's a whole vocabulary out here, ethical non monogamy, open relationship, or polyamory, like a lot of these can be used interchangeably. But the reason why I feel polyamory is a subset is because in my mind, polyamory is you have a relationship with the person that you are dating or whatever, like, it's not a stranger you're meeting on the street and going into like a sex party. It's not to me, polyamory, my my viewpoint. But being allowed to go do that would be, oh, I'm in a relationship that allows that to me. That would be an open relationship or, Oh, I'm an ethical non monogamous. I think ethical non monogamy and open to me are synonymous, because it means that I am openly, transparently and consciously choosing with my partner to do whatever it is that we've agreed to in our partnership. It doesn't mean anything, right? And that the polyamory is one way of doing that involves an emotional connection.
Andrea Enright 34:02
Yeah. Okay, so the New York Times recently just had an article like, top five books for polyamorous couples. Yeah? I mean, opening up is on there several other ones that maybe three that you have heard you mention, and then a couple I hadn't heard of. So, you know, it's all the rage.
Janelle Orion 34:21
Yeah? Another question. I have known people in open marriages who end up leaving the relationship because it gets super complicated, curious about how you navigate jealousy, how you make it work. And if you've seen that too,
Andrea Enright 34:33
yes, it does get really, really complicated, really fucking complicated. And if you're not up for that complication, think about it. I also think monogamy is complicated in lots of ways. It's a long commitment, and so it is complicated. I was very jealous in the beginning. I don't think you have to be non jealous types of people to do this. That's not what it's about. I don't think it ever really went away. I learned to manage. It. I learned to navigate it. I learned that the more love there was, the more I expanded, the more I had to give. And I think the idea of conversion, which is just a regular Word, but I didn't know anything about it until we started being poly, was that the idea of conversion is watching someone else you love and finding joy in their joy. So seeing my husband fall in love with someone else incredibly hard. And there were moments I found eventually where I was like, Oh, I'm so happy for him, like he's a happier person, because he's going through this. And I will say it was never particularly good at it, but it was a guide post that I constantly referred back to. It's like, oh, and that that's when I became committed to his and my becoming, or his most extraordinary expression of himself and my most extraordinary expression of myself, rather than being committed to the traditional format of marriage. And
Janelle Orion 36:00
I'll throw in another term here, oh yeah. Is conscious relationships, yeah, which is what I hear you're describing. Yes, you evolved into that where the goal of the relationship is actual growth, yeah, growth of the individual, right? And growth of the relationship, and that both are in service of each other, but not that the individual is being sacrificed their growth for their relationship. That's
Andrea Enright 36:26
interesting. That's good part too. Yeah, are you saying the individual growth of one is not being sacrificed for the growth of the couple? Right? Yeah, right, got it,
Janelle Orion 36:34
or that the relationship is not higher than the individual? Yeah, and priority, but that, in a way you could think of it, there's three, there's two individuals, and then there's the two of you together. That's its own entity, yes, and each of them have their own growth plans, right? Beautiful. And I would say that jealousy for me helped me see that I was co dependent. Yeah, I didn't think I was jealous going into this I was a jealous personality. Yeah, that's right. And then we invited a woman into our relationship, and I found myself in a shower, ripping my heart out because it was in so much pain. And then figured out, oh, what's that pain? Oh, that's actually what jealousy is. Thank you to more than two, which is a book which helps me understand that the emotion I was feeling yeah and navigating Yeah, like my dependency on how I was in the world was so dependent on my relationship and how it was functioning.
Andrea Enright 37:29
Yes, that's a great sentence too. Yeah, even though, isn't it fascinating? Like, it's so true for me too. And yet, if you would have talked to anyone in my life, they would have been like, you have so much personality, you're so independent, you totally know what you're doing. You're so brave. Like, I really think they would have like, that's how I considered myself. That's some like, Meek wife Agreed, agreed.
Janelle Orion 37:55
This is such a paradox. Yeah. I mean, I actually had someone say to that when I told him, and I was, like, navigating codependency, he's like, you're like, the most independent. Most independent woman I know. And I was like, I know, but I'm still looking towards someone outside of me, yes, to validate my experience. Yes, that's the bottom line. And I think there are plenty of people out there to be like, I'm
Andrea Enright 38:16
a feminist, I'm strong, but if we're if you're still looking for someone else to validate your existence, your experience, your place in the world. Am I still was in some in some way, for sure? Yeah, for me too.
Janelle Orion 38:31
Okay, so now going leaving the poly questions and going into a menopause, any recommendations for the fatigue and insomnia during menopause or any midlife women ish stress? No, dear, just the whole package. Oh, yeah, it's
like, just everything. What do you think?
What should I do?
Andrea Enright 38:51
I love these questions. Though they're so good. They're always so good at their brave heart conversations. All I can tell you is, okay, my journey changed in three distinct places I have tried to sum this up recently. One when I stopped listening to my OB GYN, because, you know, they know a lot of stuff, but they know a lot of stuff about menopause and perimenopause, and all they were giving me was barriers, limitations, pills, medicine and saying no to a lot of things early on too. Like, like, obviously hormones, in the beginning was like, No, don't do that. You know, there was a lot of misinformation about that. But in general, my point is that you have to go outside of traditional medicine, whether that's functional medicine or naturopath or doing your own research online, or going woo or having a ceremony, or Chinese medicine, or Chinese medicine, or you can just there's so many different alternative paths now. So that's one two. When I started really understanding my own holistic being, all the ways I was being impacted, not just the half lashes, not just the i. Anxiety, not just the insomnia, but all the ways I was contributing to my own health, and not necessarily negatively, but I just I didn't realize what my body needed. And so this is everything. It's your lifestyle, how you sleep, where you sleep, how you eat, where you eat, the type of exercise you know how you're dealing with your anxiety, if you meditate, how you're digesting your day. I think there was just too many one offs that said gluten is bad for you. Stop eating gluten. You need more protein. Definitely more protein. Did you know that magnesium is a cure all for menopause and perimenopause? I just kept getting these little sound bites, you know, from Instagram or from a podcast, and be like, Okay, I'll try that. And then I would try it, and they would work for a little about and then it would not work anymore, because I wasn't approaching it from a holistic place. Yeah,
Janelle Orion 40:52
and what I'm hearing is that you were trying to solve insomnia or you're trying to solve hot flashes, without realizing that there probably actually was an interconnectedness, yes, between that at a deeper level, those were symptoms of something at an underlying level, yes.
Andrea Enright 41:06
And so I would say it's really a combination of three things. It's my personality, and I run anxious, and so that was impacting my sleep, my perimenopause, and then the changes in my life. And so all of that were contributing to all of my symptoms, and I was trying it in, like, one at a time, Oh, this isn't working. Never mind. Push it away, bring something else in. And that didn't work. Okay, that's that's huge. You can listen to our last episode or two episodes ago about my Ayurvedic journey. That is what really has changed my perimenopausal life. Thank
Janelle Orion 41:44
goodness, yay, yay, yay. Okay, Braveheart. Thank you so much, as always, for showing up to listen and also to those of you who came to our conversation, and we are hosting them every month. So check out permission to be human. Dot live forward, slash events to find out what our next one is. Do you need permission to be human? You got it? Listen, subscribe and review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about us at permission to be human. Dot live you.