In this episode, Janelle and Andrea discuss the Wheel of Consent with educator, playwright and pro-domme Carmen Leilani De Jesus. They cover how to get curious about what we want and ask for it (no small task) and how we can find a win-win! There’s real-time embodiment exercises, several mic drop moments (Andrea shrieks!) and actionable homework for Bravehearts. Includes a nod to the Pomodoro Technique, “The Art of Giving and Receiving”, by Betty Martin, the Wanting Game and the Three Minute Game. You’ll hear:
--Where to start when approaching your partner about sex
--Why pleasure is an INSIDE job (and you can take responsibility for yours!)
--Why “giving you pleasure gives me pleasure” isn’t a win-win
--How the basics still apply: Trust, Value and Communication
--Why consent should be a mutual understanding of desires and limits (or willingness with limits!).
--How saying our desires out loud can help us embody them
--Why Janelle likes to have sex and THEN go to dinner
--The lowdown on creating somatic bookmarks in your body!
Connect with Carmen:
IG = @consentisapractice
TRANSCRIPT:
Janelle Orion 0:01
Struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could
Andrea Enright 0:41
be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts.
Janelle Orion 0:45
Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth. If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel left alone along the way we got you.
It was really fascinating for me to be able to talk to the expert around the wheel of consent, because although I've got, you know, I've been to her trainings and to and I've read the book several times just to listen to someone who's obviously so fluid in this framework, and to be able to so readily talk about all these different examples about why it's hard for us to ask for what we want.
Andrea Enright 1:30
Yeah, the pleasure is in me. The pleasure is in you, brave hearts. This is the big news.
Janelle Orion 1:39
Yeah, listen to the whole episode to figure out, wait, what does that mean? But it is. It's true. Like we have been taught and conditioned to think that pleasure is outside of us and it's someone else's, or we can't get it unless we get it from somebody else.
Andrea Enright 1:57
Yeah, listen to this episode for like, how to feel into a full body yes and a full body No, because we're teaching you this is amazing.
Janelle Orion 2:07
Yeah, okay, stay tuned. Here it comes. Hi, brave hearts. We have another exciting episode. Andrea, so good to be here. Yeah,
Andrea Enright 2:17
welcome to permission to be human. We love you brave hearts, and we're so excited for you to be here as part of our season three. This is our sixth, sixth episode in our 12 part series about how to talk to your partner, about sex and intimacy, edgy topics, for sure, and so needed, I think recently, I was telling a client, I'm like, This impacts so much of the population, like at least 75% and I'm just like, that's not an that's not an official statistic. He's like, only 75% I think it's more like 95
Janelle Orion 2:54
Yes. And what I really believe is that even though the question is how to talk to our partners about sex and intimacy. That these skills, which is why I'm so excited to talk to our guests today, are actually life skills. These are going to help us communicate with everyone on anything, not just about sex and intimacy.
Andrea Enright 3:12
Yes. Great clarification. Janelle, okay, so let me introduce our guest today. I'm super excited. I loved like just jotting up this bio. So as a consent educator, Carmen de Jesus has led dozens of trainings across the world. She is a playwright, a performer and a pro DOM, and has been working with Dr Betty Martin for over a decade, focusing on somatic discernment, integrity and embodied equanimity. Whew, that's a lot. She is now a consultant and teacher for the School of consent, at the surrogate partner collective, through a lens which centers on reclaiming agency, decolonizing the body, and cultivating resilience through boundaries, equity and prioritizing joy. Carmen has an abiding love of Prince. Yay, weighted blankets also yay
Janelle Orion 4:10
hugs from her partner, the Pacific Ocean and Hong Kong style pan fried crispy noodles with beef, which really makes my mouth water. We are so honored to be talking today to Carmen de Jesus, welcome.
Carmen 4:24
Thank you. Thank you. Andrea, thank you, Janelle. We're
Janelle Orion 4:27
so happy you're here. And so Carmen, the first question does the brave hearts to understand? Can you give a little bit of an explanation of the will of consent? And like, when you say you work at the school of consent, like, what does that mean? Sure,
Carmen 4:41
the School of consent is the home of the wheel of consent, which is a framework for relational dynamics, that is a set of practices and a concept developed by Dr Betty Martin and. It is, in her way of putting it, a new way of understanding the difference between receiving and giving and understanding consent as a an agreement that is mutually satisfying for both people, or at least mutually clear about who is doing what, who is being done to, and who it's for. So this particular framework illuminates so many relational dynamics around and things that maybe we never even thought of around asking for what we want, but asking for we want of something that I want to do to you, or asking for something that I want for you to do to me, and then also asking, How can I do something for you, or how can I be a gift to you? And I love that Betty has really contextualized all of these dynamics in the framework of who is giving a gift and who is asking or getting and receiving a gift. Camera,
Janelle Orion 6:13
I'm gonna pause you right there, because you just said so many juicy things. What I would love to do is in this moment, in like hearing everything that you said, letting brave hearts know that the reason why we have Carmen on the show is because both Andrea and I have been were introduced to the wheel of consent years ago. And for me, I feel what she just said about understanding the difference between giving and receiving and who was for and who's who's who is being done to have been foundational to my experience of my nervous system feeling more relaxed when I am interacting in intimacy or sex with a partner, and for becoming clear in what I want, both of those which things have helped me feel more free. There's really, like, no other framework that I can, like, say to everyone out there, like, learn this, learn this, learn this. Because it is really, truly zoom life changing for me. So thank you, Carmen, just for, like, devoting your life to to sharing the word about Betty's framework. Thank
Carmen 7:17
you. Thank you.
Andrea Enright 7:19
I love Carmen that you just distilled all of that down to giving and receiving a gift. Like giving and receiving a gift, that's what we're doing when we are asking for consent, when we're giving consent, when we are giving and receiving and allowing us to do both in this world is sometimes not as easy as we, as we as it should be, or as we think it might be.
Carmen 7:51
It's so transformative to the way we think of ourselves and each other that just the idea that I can be a gift at all without having to do anything extra, and that that comes from me knowing where my limits are, so that within these limits that I have to notice and communicate that I can be so generous in whatever it is that I'm I can offer to you, and that to receive something doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be the one always. Just waiting for somebody to to offer something to you. You can ask, asking for what we want, is a huge piece of this, asking for what we desire, asking also for what we need to be a limit. So so much of what this is about is negotiating, well, first of all, noticing that I have a desire, noticing that I have a limit, if somebody else expresses their desire to me, and then from there, really communicating through an ongoing process of somatic discernment. And what I mean by that, and that's, that's just, you know, that's how I interpret this work, is that it is helping us to develop somatic discernment. Somatic is like with my body. I can trust that it is giving me clear information about what I actually want or don't want, and I am guided by that.
Janelle Orion 9:43
So with that, I was, I was want to, like, pause you there, because to tie in this idea of asking for what we want and recognizing in this framework of what you just said, of like, oh, asking for what we want is actually a gift. Wait What right? So many of us are taught to think that asking for what we want is selfish and for many other reasons. So before we continue, I love just to go a little bit deeper into like, why don't we always ask for what we want, and why don't we always know what it is that we want?
Carmen 10:18
Well, you know, as you know, because you've taken like a pro the wheel of consent for professionals training, we go into this in depth, and it is heartbreaking to put up a big old piece of paper and ask people, why don't we ask for what we want?
Andrea Enright 10:36
And what are the answers? Fear of rejection.
Carmen 10:39
I don't know what I want. If I ask somebody will judge me. If I ask some, I will owe somebody and be obligated. If I ask somebody will think My thing is super weird. If I ask, and then, then I'm out there, I'm vulnerable. Or rejection, yeah, and the fear of rejection, of course, is huge. And also even not knowing what you want. Because especially when it comes to the body, there's so many reasons why we have been conditioned growing up to ignore some of those signals from our body. We have been taught don't want that, like, oh, I want this. No, no, no, you can't. You don't, don't cut that, cut that off. You're not allowed to have that. You're not allowed to want that because x, y, z, depending on the body that you're in, depending on the family system you grew up in, depending what trauma you've gone through, depending on that, you have to protect yourself, you know, from RE triggering or reactivating, depending on what religious background or cultural background you have, accessing what we want, yes, has been contextualized as something That is selfish, and it's really sad to see that so many people, myself, included, in many instances, would rather, would rather go without than even notice what it is that we want for ourselves, because the pain of potentially being rejected, the pain of not having it, the pain of longing, can be more painful or heavier, but also more familiar and therefore easier to live with than actually noticing and reaching out. What would feel good to me. What would make my life better? How would I love a person to communicate with me or make an offer or tell me? You know, you can ask for these things. So it's so tender. The number one thing about asking for what we want is that is one of the most vulnerable things ever. What I
Andrea Enright 12:58
think I hear you saying is that a lot of people are afraid to ask for what they want for various reasons? Yes, for lots of reasons. I'm curious if there's also a population that thinks they're asking for what they want. This is what they've been taught to want. They're unhappy in some way, but they actually aren't even linking it to not ask because they think they are asking for what they want, but then it's somehow unsatisfying. And so if they're living there, how do they get out of that cultural conditioning? Well,
Carmen 13:31
that's part of the reason why we start with accessing our embodied yes or no, and when we what I how I understand that to be, is that, you know, we walk around the room, we invite people to, like, walk around the room and just notice what Yes, feels like in their body, where they feel that in their body. Notice, okay, when I think, yes, do I feel an opening? Do I feel a warmth? Do I feel a something? And also, the same goes for no. In that people walk around, they bring no into their awareness. And so we're at we're bringing people back to their bodies first. So it's not like, this is content agnostic, right? We're not saying, remember a time when blank, blank, blank, blank, blank. We're saying just like, just No, just Yes, just words. How do you connect to those words for yourself? And like, can we bookmark that I like to offer access points, right? So my access points for, for example, for my embodied yes or no is like, what is something that I would be an immediate yes to? Can you both think of something that if you were offered immediately Yes,
Andrea Enright 14:56
tiramisu, dancing? I.
Carmen 15:00
But all right, well, let's feel that in your body. Where is that? Or what do you see? What do you feel? What comes up that connects you to that yes, because now you have a bookmark of what yes feels like that comes from you, apart from any pressure from society, apart from any pressure of feeling like I have to say yes because it's not safe for me to say no. So just getting back to that embodied Yes, what does yes feel like for me and like in this very simple way that strips away all the layers of should. So I'm going
Janelle Orion 15:41
to pause you there, Carmen, because I'm going to invite our brave hearts, because Andrew and I just got to do that right? Like Carmen asked the question, what's something that you're a yes to and like a really yummy Yes, and feel that in your body. So just take a moment, wherever you are, unless you're driving, close your eyes and feel that for me. I know it felt like a little bit like my tiramisu was like I could feel that in my throat. I could also feel that a little bit in my in my belly, but there was also a visual, right? I guess again, like a smile happened as soon as I, like, thought of it. So that was happened for me. Andrea, what happened for you?
Andrea Enright 16:23
A visual of the dancing. I heard the music, I saw a little bit of glitter, and I like, I'm already doing it right. Like, I feel it in my I feel it in my whole body, right? Janelle, and I was like, I start moving my arms first, right?
Carmen 16:37
Yes. It's like, what is an immediate yes for me? And just like, hey, now I know what that feels like. So next time I'm in a situation where I'm asked for something and I'm like, gosh, I don't am I? Maybe I'm on the fence. Maybe I don't know how I feel about this. Maybe I look for these, these feelings, these somatic bookmarks, right? And then, you know, it's somatic experiencing. And other other frameworks, of course, will pop their own terminology for that. It just sort of like, hey, if I'm if I'm sitting here, mapping my own reactions to what makes me say yes. And you know, some people can't always do this, because embodiment is hard. Sometimes embodiment is not always safe. For people who have lived with a lot of trauma, for people who still live with the threat of violence or depending on who they are with, depending on the bodies they live with, depending this or where their social location offers them safety or not safety in the communities that they are a part of. So another one that's really good is the embodied no right. And this one can also be challenging, because I think about this this way. When you open it, like, if I it's like, well, yeah, walk around and think about what you or or just even sitting there, think about the word no, and notice what comes up for you in your body when you're just thinking about it, and where you feel it, what it feels like. Then think about even verbalizing it when you feel ready to what is also something that your immediate no to, that you know for sure. And this is where it gets a little bit activating, if your no has not always been respected. And so like when and this, this is why, when we do this exercise, I really invite gentleness. And because when we open up a file, folder of No, all these bad things sometimes fly out of like all the times in the past where you've wanted to but you couldn't, or you did say no, And nobody cared, and it didn't matter.
Janelle Orion 19:21
So with that, what I'm hearing as this is this as like a first step for our brave hearts, like we've got now. We've moved from the yes into the No, and for some of us, like that might be the place where we're just that's where we're just working with that area for a while, right? Like this is like Carmen's teaching is at a very foundational level. It's like, kind of the starting point to how we can figure out what it is that we want by listening to our bodies. And what I'm curious about is in the assumption here that if people are choosing to like they want to be taught. Talking about sex and intimacy with their partners, and we're just gonna make this assumption, because they're listening to this podcast to get these skills, that they want to be like they're with a partner they want to be having these conversations with. Right then, how do they go from okay, I've got a yes and my no in my body, but then, like, what's what's next? Are they saying? Do they just go to their partner and say, This is what I want, and what happens if it's received or not received? And is there a way to get to a as you said, like there's a limit, right? I guess, doesn't? I guess it may, and I know may not, be the end of everything. So
Carmen 20:39
there is more than just the binary of yes and no. In this particular framework of the wheel of consent, there is also a spectrum of response, wherein, on one side of the spectrum, it's about what you want, it's what you're a yes to, right and then you move into, you know, you move the spectrum. And this is like, a spectrum of, for example, of choice, right where, like, it's I'm at choice, because it's what I want. And then we move over to the other side of the spectrum, where it's, like, not around what I want. And now somebody else has expressed whatever it is that they want, and I'm like, you know, I don't want that for me. I'm not incepting that desire. I don't like I don't exactly match up with that. But now I'm moving into, if this isn't for me, then this is for you, and based on who you are and how I feel in the moment and the context and any other particular factors I can assess how much I am willing to participate.
Andrea Enright 21:47
Okay, awesome. I just want to stop you there, because I think you just said a big thing that's I want to, like, translate to a conversation about sex and intimacy in bed. So an example I'm thinking of is like, oh, one person wants to have sex, the other person doesn't, right? And so I think right now, most often I hear that the one's like, oh, well, I don't want that, but I'm just gonna pretend I want it because the other person wants it. And I think you're saying to nuance it out and say, Actually, I'm not wishing for this, but I am willing to do this. Other thing for you, is that correct? Am I getting that
Carmen 22:30
it could be this? I mean, first of all, the nuance is the difference between wanting it's for me and sometimes we can both want it equally right, and in that we don't really need to negotiate much until somebody changes their mind about what's happening. But then and that, the nuance is that your yes can also be not out of want, it can be out of willingness, and that comes with a set of limits. Willingness is about the other person's desire. I can say, You know what, I'm willing to do that, but I'm pretty tired today. I mean, can we do something less athletic, or something like that, or like, you know, can I just, can we just do this bit, or whatever it is, but just saying, like being able to state that I am willing to do this, and here are my limits, and within those limits, I can be super generous and present with you. Ah, beautiful. But beyond that, I'm moving into enduring. I'm moving into tolerating, and then all the way you go further than that, and it's just sort of like I don't have a choice. I am being forced. I am being exploited, etc. But the nuance, especially for that, I think we you want to hit for your brave hearts is that, hey, when it's okay to say yes, and it's not it for you and you're in your willingness, but what you have to stay responsible for when you're in your willingness is communicating where your limits are beautiful. So
Janelle Orion 24:19
what I would say to that for me, right? Like, I I know that I sort of, like, turn into a pumpkin after like, 10pm right? That is not my ideal time for intimacy. So if someone was to, like, approach me and say, like, I've actually figured this out, which is that I'm like, oh, like, I'm gonna go on a date. Sometimes, like, okay, good, great. And they're like, I'd love to have sex. I'd say, great, I'd love to have sex first, and then we go to dinner.
I love that we're not
right, just because I'm like, Oh, I love that for you. Yeah, I love that we're just but just like realizing, like, Oh, my limit is. I need to be in bed by 10, like, I have to work tomorrow. I have things to do. Like, we've got these few hours for me to be and I love that you're saying this phrase, like, for me to be generous and excited, to be willing to do whatever I want. I have to not be tired.
Carmen 25:15
And maybe your willingness is like, you know what? I'm willing to do this, and we're putting a timer on it.
Andrea Enright 25:24
Totally. I love timers. How many
Carmen 25:27
can we go for within this 30 minute session, or whatever? Make it fun. But the point being that, like you're really stating, and this is so important, especially in these times where we all have a finite amount of life force and energy and spoons, and however you want to call it, and we want to make sure that we're using that energy well and within our capacity. And so that's another really big word for me in terms of willingness. Willingness is also like when you talk about limits, my capacity is a limit. And as I become more embodied, I become more aware of like, wow, I am actually pushing my capacity out beyond what I really am here for right now, or what I really have energy or attention or enough dopamine, whatever you want to call it for right now,
Janelle Orion 26:30
something that's really coming up for me is that in this conversation of like wanting what I want, But then and then, what am I willing to do? The responsibility of the person saying yes, I am willing is on their limits, and that they're stating their limit, knowing their limits, and stating them. And what is coming for me is that I think a lot of us might actually be more willing to do a lot of things with generosity, if we actually we're aware that we can have limits, that we do have limits, and that we can, like create the environment that makes us be willing with the most amount of fun, it
Andrea Enright 27:19
works for both people, right? So, and I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna say, I'm like, Oh, this is the Pomodoro pleasure technique, right? How about it?
Janelle Orion 27:30
Because this is definitely
Carmen 27:32
something I'm a fan of. Now, you're gonna say which lover or partner in the past I've had, but like setting a timer for 15 minutes for a particular act was so good for both parties, right? It actually, it actually wasn't really for me, I was actually the one performing something, but the receiver was like, Oh, good, I can relax. Like I don't have to worry that, like it's taking too long. Is she getting tired? Is she uncomfortable? No, it actually is such a win, win. And so you set up this time container, and we can both relax into it. And I know I have a little bit more time, and then I can, you know, it works for both people. Does that make sense to you? See what I'm saying, it
absolutely makes sense. It absolutely makes sense. And first of all, I want to say that I love the idea of efficiency, but I know it could be a vibe killer for some
people, but it's needed, but it
can also be, it can also be a challenge. It could also be like, Hey, let's take off this challenge together. I mean, I know parents, lots of parents do it all the time, like, we've got 10 minutes while the kids are it's or at the neighbor's house or something like that. And they, you know, they have to go for it with the time that they have available. So, yeah, this is kind of like that, but with more awareness.
Janelle Orion 29:02
Carmen, what I'd love for you to do is, can you give a brief summary of the frame? I don't know if she calls it a framework, but this idea of noticing in our body, the noticing trust value in communicating, sure.
Carmen 29:15
So this is a part of the wheel of consent framework by Dr Betty Martin, and it's the part of the framework where these are the steps, for example, to noticing, noticing, trusting, valuing, communicating. These are the four steps that help us to come to clear consent agreements guided by our own bodies, our own bodies telling us either what we want for ourselves or what we are or aren't available for slash, willing to do for someone else or with someone else. Yeah. And first step, as we said, is that noticing, noticing what is my yes or no, noticing what do I even want? And that's a part where people get stuck, too. And I want to offer one of my favorite games, which is called the wanting game, where all we're going to do, and we can just do this really quickly as as a triad right here. A wanting game is just simply each of us taking turns tapping into, what do I want right now? What does my or what you can even say, What does my body want right now? So I will say I can start, and then we're just going to keep going. And this is knowing that it doesn't you can go pie in the sky. You don't have to worry. This isn't a request. This is a statement. And that's also important, because sometimes people make statements and think that they're making a request, but they're not. They're making a statement. Do you have to turn your statement or your desire into a request? That's also part of what you need to do, but just noticing what we want. Can we try that for like, a minute or two? So I'm going to start and I'm going to notice that I want a two hour session with my amazing chiropractor slash body worker, who I know can give me an awesome full body massage with myofascial release that hurts so good, but then also finish it off with like the best of A chiropractic neck adjustment ever
Janelle Orion 31:41
as I tune into my body, what I want to do and I'm going to actually do it is to stretch my right leg, because I realize that it's actually uncomfortable, and I've done nothing about it the last 10 minutes.
Andrea Enright 31:54
I want
so badly,
some kind of smoothing across these sticky, scratchy particles in my throat.
Janelle Orion 32:07
Because my throat is just, it doesn't hurt. It's just, it's very light, but it just, they just want to scratch it. I just want to smooth it over.
Carmen 32:19
I want a hammock so that I can put it between the two trees in our grove of trees, so that when the weather is nicer, that I can just lie in it and sway like I'm in a baby cradle and take a nap and just listen to birds and the creek nearby and just be there by myself.
Janelle Orion 32:56
I want to be in a really cute swimsuit on a beach with the sun shining on me, so I can just feel that like the combination of the warmth and the humidity and the sand and the salt on my skin.
Andrea Enright 33:19
I want a bowl of macaroni salad from lemon Deli.
Carmen 33:29
Thank you. So this is one of the first steps, and that's something that people can do just while you're driving your car, for example, going someplace, or where you're just kind of like just sitting on the couch and just and the idea here is that when we tune into that, our wants help to enliven us. When we get in, in tune with it, and like hearing the other persons, like really starts to snowball, and then you can start shifting, not just for what I want, but for what I would want with you. So getting into that mindset of, like, looking at, looking across at your partner, sitting next to your partner, and like, really thinking, like, what do I want with you, the idea that you once you start noticing what you want for yourself, then you start moving it outside to like, what do I want with you, my partner? What would feel good? And this is what can you know, you could totally segue into the three minute game. The three minute game being another one of the foundational practices of the wheel of consent. It was originally devised by Harry Faddis, and Betty learned it from him at a kink retreat where the original two questions, what do you want to do to me and what do you want me to do to you? Betty has adapted to, how do you want to touch me? Me, and how do you want me to touch you? And then those two questions, just asking those two questions of all of her clients and people in workshops and over the years, actually, the answers to those questions were what yielded this the wheel of consent itself. So Carmen,
Janelle Orion 35:21
I'm gonna pause you there, because what I'm hearing, one just to go back to that wanting game, right? What I what I'm hearing, is allowing ourselves to hear ourselves say what it is that our body is telling us, and saying that out loud is a practice. And so when you were saying, like, driving in our cars or being at our desk, and just start naming our desires and our wants out loud, is a way to start, and like, tuning into our bodies, and then, as you're going into now, like this three minute game, This question of, how do I want to be touched, and how do I want to touch you? Just as a foundational question, and I know, and I know, but it's because of my training, right? Like you don't want to actually even have to start with sex or intimacy, like with those with those answers you can start with here's just a body part that is non sexual to start to practice.
Carmen 36:22
That's why we start with the hands, you know, in in all of our all of the like a pro trainings for professionals, so the wheel of consent for professionals, or the official wheel of consent workshops, which aren't, which is for everyone, and not just professionals. One of the things that we start with after, like locating that embodied. Yes or no is, how do we wake up our hands? And there's a practice called waking up the hands around that. And it's really because the hands being one of the places that has the most nerve endings in our bodies, other than our lips and our genitals. So hey, let's just, let's just work with the hands and see. Can we, you know this, this is helpful, not for so many reasons, but with regard to pleasure. First of all, this is where we should we share that like, pleasure is an inside job. It's not something you can actually give or receive to somebody else. Say
Janelle Orion 37:19
that again, yeah, wait, what did you say?
Carmen 37:23
Pleasure is an inside job, and you can't get give it, or you can't give it or receive it.
Janelle Orion 37:31
Okay, what do you mean? What do you mean? Yeah, I don't understand. Oh, I know. I
Carmen 37:36
know. I know. So pleasure is an internal physiological experience that people can contribute to. But you know, it's not something that somebody can give to you, as in, like, Here have some pleasure. They can contribute to it by offering the stimuli, offering the context or the meaning, making of it like, Ooh, what's this scene? What's like? What, what is, what is the vibe here? Like, what is our dynamic that that makes this, this situation, electric to me? You know? And you know, what is our experience of that? It's around this idea that pleasure is something that we can access for ourselves. And when we to this practice called waking up the hands, which wherein it's just a practice of getting very, very comfortable in in my workshops, I call it activating maximum comfiness, and then taking an object and actually just feeling it and waking up the sensation in your hands, slowly, slowly, slowly, so you can re you know, so you can have the experience of, Oh, something that I do to myself, to my skin, is creating a sensation that is traveling up to the pleasure centers of my brain, and which is, and it's interpreting it as this feels good. That's pleasure. And that's not the only kind of pleasure, right? But in terms of touch, that's where Betty Martin's like, let's go back to the foundations, because as children, we can go around and touch everything. We put it in our mouths, we touch it, we touch it, and then we're told, stop touching stop touching each other, stop touching yourself. You
Andrea Enright 39:20
just want to stop like this. This pleasure is in you is revolutionary. And, I mean, I've learned it really from Janelle go and she learned it, I imagine, over experience, as well as ready from this experience, from Betty Martin and from you. But, I mean, I just passed it on to someone two days ago and said, Oh no, the pleasure is actually in you like but that is not how culture and language talks about pleasure and orgasms,
Carmen 39:47
which is exactly why one of the things, when we talk, you know, one of the things that we like to bring up is like, there's an indirect route to pleasure, and then there's a direct route to pleasure. Direct. Just through your own body, through your own senses. And indirect for example, is when I do something to you so that you can have an experience, and I'm looking to see, are you enjoying it? Are you enjoying it? Oh, yes, thank you. That gives me pleasure. So that vicarious indirectness, which is what's always very, very interesting, because when I when I teach this, it's like, okay to preface this, who here has heard the phrase giving you pleasure is what gives me pleasure.
Janelle Orion 40:35
That's always what they say.
Carmen 40:40
Ah, you know? And like everybody, it's, that's part of what is the cultural narrative, right? The norm, yes, and that did not, it's like, Okay, that's great. And I understand there's, we're not saying that that's bad, but it also is not the only way, and it also may not be as upfront and clear in the agreement and some some people and this is what ends and when that happens. For example, if you and I were partners and you told me that giving you pleasure is what gives me pleasure, then wow, if I don't actually, if you're and I know that you're looking at me and you're doing something, and I'm like, oh, okay, okay, I have to perform pleasure or then I'm disappointing you
Janelle Orion 41:34
exactly. I've totally been in this situation. I'm just like, No, don't say that. Nobody
Carmen 41:39
wins, right? Nobody wins. That feels
Janelle Orion 41:43
like its own mic drop moment of right? It's okay to have pleasure from someone else's pleasure, but it's equally as poor as important to know how to get pleasure, to recognize it for within ourselves, from ourselves,
Carmen 42:01
sure, sure, and to not, because, also, you don't always want to be using the other person so that you can have some pleasure for yourself.
Andrea Enright 42:13
Yeah, exactly. That's another big statement, because that just means you need someone else to get pleasure.
Carmen 42:17
And if pleasure is Inside Job enough, I can get it from like a pen or whatever on my skin, and be real, be with and present to the fact that I can generate and elicit these own sensations inside of me. Then I take responsibility for my pleasure. Then it doesn't matter if I'm alone or whatever I can I have access to this, to pleasure, which is an absolute necessity in these times, especially for our own resourcing and resilience. You know, it also that that whole thing of like, you know what, I don't want to have to use somebody else to access pleasure for myself. So we're not saying that indirect pleasure is bad. It's just that, you know what? Let's clean it up. Let's clean up who it's for. Let's clean up like, who, who is really wanting something here? Because if, if you're trying to give to me, and I'm trying to also give back to you by performing so that you don't feel bad. And you're trying, you're working so hard on me, and I'm just like, Oh my God, when this is gonna be over, and no one is actually at ease. No one is connected to themselves, because the indirectness part takes us out of our direct experience on both sides.
Janelle Orion 43:43
So this to me, brave hearts, it's too much to take notes. Fortunately, Dr Betty Martin has there's a lot of tools and resources available to you besides this podcast, but this podcast is hopefully giving you the understanding that what we think we want, what we think is how we're supposed to ask for it, what we think pleasure is like. All of these things are actually like, really just generally different than we've been raised to believe. And our big reason why possibly communication with our partners is confusing and hard and vulnerable, because we're not actually speaking the same language about what it is that we want. We don't even know it for ourselves, and then how to communicate it to somebody else. Yeah,
Carmen 44:31
and, you know, I wanted, I don't know if we have time for this, but I do want to speak to this, this more antiquated and to, you know, heteronormative idea of what consent is, for example, and that is, you know, because maybe this is part of the conditioning that you had, or, you know, the the beliefs that you have about how to get to sex, right? Yeah. Which is in this old model, the woman has the sex, and she is there to protect it, her virtue, her chastity, whatever, and the man wants it, and it's the man's job to get it. So it's the man's job to initiate, to convince, to persuade, to seduce, to get the consent to get to the sex, and then, conversely, it's the woman's job to, like, withhold or give in and surrender or decide or deny. And in many situations, a woman's choice may not even choices not may not even be all of those things, and a woman's choice might have to be to assess the risk of saying, No, is it even safe? Which is a pretty fucked up thing, but it is true. You know, I heard again that that quote of like, you know, what are men afraid of with women? And men are afraid of that they'll be laughed at. And then they ask women, what are you afraid of with men? And they're we're afraid that they're going to kill us or harm us. So that old paradigm also leaves out that the woman has any desires that she can put forth or initiate that comes from her own body, and that puts all the responsibility on the man to initiate. And then also, does the man have limits? Then too. So it leaves out these people who have their own sense of agency and their own desires and their own limits. And that's why, in this model of the wheel of consent, consent is arrived at together with noticing, ideally what feels good to each person in their bodies, and noticing that, trusting that, like I trust that this desire is mine. I value that my desires matter, and now I'm going to communicate this is what I want. And then conversely, doing the same process, if you're asked something, noticing, trusting, valuing and communicating, Hey, I've heard your want, I've heard your desire. I'm taking it to the same process, and here's my limit or my negotiation around it, so that we can both be at ease and enjoy and set the context for us and our bodies to feel safe and present to each other and ourselves. It's not about withholding or giving something up. It's about honoring that we both have desires and limits. Okay,
Janelle Orion 47:49
Bravehearts, this is a, this is a juicy, big episode here. Carmen has just like, yeah, basically given us an entire new way of seeing the world and seeing sex and intimacy in our bodies and our wants and our desires. Carmen, what we'd love to hear from you is what is a brave heart homework that you're going to leave them with brave
Carmen 48:10
hearts. Here is your challenge. First is go on a little walk, maybe just around your house and notice, think about things that you're a yes to, and try to find those bookmarks, and make those bookmarks of what of like. This is what feels like a yes in my body. And also same with no, and then maybe even maybe, yes, no, maybe feel for those as you move throughout space. Next is where in your life might you notice that you have been enduring something or tolerating something that you don't really want. Maybe consider, can I say no to that? Can I set a limit? Is it psychologically, physically, you know, financially viable, safe for me to do that? And if not, and you still have to say yes to things that you really may be a no to, which is the experience of many, many people, because we can't all say yes or no, the same choice and consent is a privilege. But notice where your limits to your willingness might be, and can you communicate those limits so that at least on your side of the street, on your side of the agreement, you're being clear, so that you don't just. Go, you know, sometimes we only find our limits or our boundaries after somebody's crossed them. Can you identify them first and take responsibility and communicate those and see what, see what may be different for you.
Janelle Orion 50:17
Okay, all right, brave hearts, that is our homework and what Carmen, thank you so much. What I'd love to for us to leave with is, how can people find you? How do you work with people? How can people find you? And where can they find resources on everything you talked about, first off,
Carmen 50:37
resources, School of consent.org, so that's where all of our trainings are for the School of consent. You'll find out more about us, about our programs. Also, Dr Betty Martin has been so, so generous in her sharing what she's taught over the years. So if you go on YouTube, or if you go to bettymartin.org you can find a lot of her old videos there, if that's helpful for you to want to if you want to dive deeper, of course, on the school of consent website, it has all of our trainings, the trainings that we have, specifically their flagship trainings called like a pro the wheel of consent for professionals. And that is a five day training where the first three days are about you and your embodied experience of this model, of this framework, through the practices, and then focusing on days four and five, on how, now that we know this, we can use this with our one to one clients. So I do that at the School of consent. I'm teaching in Oakland in April, in DC in May, and it looks like Montreal and Seattle in the fall. Through the school of consent, I also offer my own non School of consent, but wheel of consent informed workshops, because I'm one of the certified facilitators as well. So you can find that either on Instagram, where I am at on my personal account at consent is a practice, and that's also the name of my website. Consent is a practice.com or I also run the at the wheel of consent account for the school and for Betty on Instagram as well, so you can find me all there. I do do mostly, um, workshops. Right now, working with groups. I'm working with a lot of nonprofits, which is lovely, because guess who's over giving the most is people in the nonprofits structure. And that's that's a really great place for folks to learn how to enforce their own limits. And I do work with a select few one to one clients, and that's people who I've done a lot of things in my life. I'm a Hypnotherapist. I have done Neuro Linguistic Programming, timeline therapy, creative coaching, executive coaching, all of these things, and I bring this new wheel of consent lens to all of those things. So I'm working with a lot of people right now who are like executive coaching, but wheel of consent informed, etc. But I love working with people, one on one, and taking it deeper than we can get to in a workshop, more vulnerable than we can get to a workshop. So I have space for about five more people this year, for for that, for ongoing coaching, and you can just find me, reach out, and I would love I'm always open to a conversation. Beautiful
Janelle Orion 53:36
Carmen, thank you so so much. It's an honor to have you here. Thank you for all the work that you're doing. Thank you for continuing to spread the good word of Dr Betty Martin, I really feel like it is taking us into a future that we all want to see.
Carmen 53:52
Yeah, it's, it's, I hope that as this model becomes more and more available to people, it helps to contribute to creating a culture of consent, especially in a time where we're moving towards more compliance and coercion, it is more important now than ever for people to be in touch with their own agency, especially Their embodied agency. So may this be a benefit to whoever is listening.
Janelle Orion 54:24
Thank you for listening, brave hearts. We'll see you next time. We love you.
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