Ep 99: Part 12/12, Domination, Surrender, and the Delicate Art of Not Lying to Yourself with Adam: Building a Relationship with Yourself Series

Andrea and Janelle sit down with Adam—a man who’s navigated and busted his ass through the minefield of marriage, identity, spiritual kink and inner truth without turning into a self-help meme. Together, they talk about what happens when you stop pretending, start feeling, and still somehow try to be sexy while setting boundaries. Warning: A lot of this is counter-intuitive and…you’ll likely recognize yourself or your man or your brother or your Dad here. Somewhere. Bravehearts, this episode is a lot like eye gazing, at a tantra workshop with your ex: Pretty intense, uncomfortably honest and deeply moving. You’ll hear:

-Why self-love starts with telling the truth, even when it’s hideous

-How alone time changed Adam’s life

-Why masculinity may not manifest without self-surrender

-How honesty could wreck your life, but in a good way

-Why domination and submission are spiritual practices, not just category tags

-The freedom is in vulnerability, even though it feels like you’re dying

TRANSCRIPT:

Janelle Orion 0:00

Janelle, struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy, AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts. Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth. If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel less alone along the way, we got you. Okay, brave hearts, this is such a special episode. One is our last episode talking about building relationships ourselves. But my dear friend Adam, who have known for a long time spoke about the masculine aspect, right? Andrea and I bring this feminine aspect in a lot. And he some of the takeaways were how similar the journey is for the masculine and the feminine within us, all right, which is About going inward in order to find ourselves

Janelle Orion 1:41

and the way Adam articulated his own journey to surrendering to himself and then getting the clarity about who he was to me that that's what it's all about. Like, if you can do that, then you can show up beautifully in any other relationship, and when he is speaking really from from a male's journey through growing up, through marriage, through parenthood, through divorce, and how much he has come back to himself

Janelle Orion 2:19

and his journey of his heart. So it's a really eloquently powerful episode from the male perspective of what it takes to build a relationship with ourselves. So yeah, enjoy. Hi, Bravehearts, welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea and I'm Janelle

Janelle Orion 2:47

And Bravehearts, this is our last episode of our series on building a relationship with yourself and for us, building a relationship with ourselves has included two major parts, the inner work and the outer work. It is a never ending dance between those. The inner work is being honest with ourselves and discovering what we want. And from that really knowing like, Oh, this is me. Oh, yeah, I understand. This is me. GI Joe said knowing is half the battle, and he's totally fucking wrong, because knowing, I'd say, is a fifth of the battle, and then the rest is the outer work, which is living your truth as a daily practice. In our last episode, we are interviewing Braveheart and long, long, long time, 27 plus years friend of Janelle Adam Max dollar, who Andrea also happened to have crossed paths with a while back, and the day that we both realized we knew Adam and how we knew him, that was a crazy day.

Janelle Orion 4:01

Small world. Here Denver is

Janelle Orion 4:04

and here we are again. So welcome

Andrea Enright 4:05

Adam. Thank you so much for having me great to be here. So Adam

Janelle Orion 4:10

mactower, lives in Denver, has mostly completed a gut remodel of a home, and is currently dating his future wife. His passions include connecting authentically with others, being a good lover, exercising in a pretty intense way, 100 mile ultra marathons. Yes, you heard that right. And his work, he has lived a life in service to others, and his latest expression of that is through being a DOM in service to all women, which we'll get into more on this podcast. Welcome once again, Adam,

Adam Mackstaller 4:47

thanks for having me

Janelle Orion 4:51

so, Adam, we're just going to dive right in. As we said, we realize that building a relationship with ourselves requires being honest with ourselves. So. When did you realize that you were not being honest with yourself?

Adam Mackstaller 5:04

Well, I the beginning of the awareness started happening once I got married, once I got married and and I had a checklist of things that I wanted to accomplish in my life, and one of those was having a powerful career, having a family. And I dove in, dove into my marriage, because it was, you know, it just felt like it was the right thing to do at the moment. And it was perfect in the moment. And we, we ended up having, we have two kids together, my ex wife and I and, and somewhere along the way, I started to realize that this isn't the right path for me and and it wasn't even long into the into the marriage, actually, that I realized that we both funny enough, we both had a very candid conversation about seven years into our marriage. We were married for 22 years, and about seven years into our marriage, we had a conversation, and we realized, you know, we both would have called off the marriage if we were, if we had, we were young. We were we were 26 years old when we got I was 26 when we got together. And we had such a public courtship. And so we both realized, you know, in leading up to it, that we didn't, we weren't brave at the moment. You know, we were, we were like, well, this is it. We're in this now, and so we ended up getting married. And then, so I'm gonna pause

Janelle Orion 6:46

you actually, just right there, because I just want to even already right, like, we're still, we're still, maybe in your early 30s. And what I heard, right is checklist, right? There was a checklist that you had set for yourself. And you're like, I'm going to check the box and I'm going to do that again, to your point, like you were it was correct. This was your correct wife and all of these things for the journey that you were on. But that reflection later on of that checklist clearly changed at some point along the way, and that what I also heard at the end there was that there was a moment where you didn't want to disappoint others, like your public engagement. It was like, Oh, you will. You didn't want to disappoint them, so you were willing to disappoint yourselves.

Adam Mackstaller 7:31

Yeah, that's absolutely right, Janelle, and we, it was, you know, we once, once we got into that track, and we were kind of locked in with kids, there was this real I just had lived in this real sense of obligation. And so my, you know, my business was going pretty well and but our relationship, we were always putting in so much effort to the relationship, and we both felt like it was just this pushing rock up the hill all the time. And I had friends say to me, you know, I had one friend in particular say to me, I've never known anybody who's worked so hard on their relationship and and multiple people over the years have reflected that back to me in my marriage, and yet, you know, it was like it just wasn't something wasn't right, something wasn't sitting right. So the moment was when we were, I moved my family overseas. We were spending, we were supposed to spend three years living, living overseas, and and I was living my life going back and forth because I still had work here. And so my family was overseas, I was coming back for work, and I was going back and forth and and what I realized is, when I got back to the United States, so around my friends and around my world here, I just really felt at home, like I was my self here, and I was and when I got back there, it's like I had to armor up, and I had to armor Up to get back into this relationship and be with in my in my family, which is terrible to say, because, of course, I love my kids so much, and I, you know, I still love my ex wife. She's a wonderful woman. Just wasn't authentic for me. It wasn't the right place for me. It was what it was right in the moment and and then we got to it got to a breaking point for me,

Janelle Orion 9:23

what did armoring up? What does that phrase mean to you? Like, what did it look like for

Adam Mackstaller 9:28

you? It was almost like sort of galvaning, galvanizing myself to sort of get through. It was galvanizing my heart and and everything to be able to get this job done, like get our kids launched and and get, you know, be in this marriage, be the best man I could be. And yet, it was a struggle in that, in that expression, every time I stepped back into that world. And that was a gift, to be able to be going to see myself in these. Two places, to be able to be to be able to be in one area and really feel myself, and then get back into this other place and be like, ah, something is not right here. And if you're in it all the time, you can't see it. It's so hard to see. You know, maybe I and I knew something was off. I knew I was struggling, and we both knew like, hey, maybe at some point we won't be together. We're going to get our kids lunch. But it just kept getting more and more intense at that point,

Janelle Orion 10:25

and you took the words right at my mouth out of my mouth that I was like, Oh, it's a gift. You had a gift by going back now, yours looked like going overseas, coming back home. But I think for Bravehearts, this can look like, like spending a night alone a week, you know, or like leaving for the weekend a month, but you had to really settle into yourself away from your family and your spouse to get there. My question is, before that happened, were you just like, oh, this is just how it's supposed to be. This is this is enough, right? Maybe my expectations were too high. Was that where you were when you weren't doing anything to change your life?

Adam Mackstaller 11:06

I think there was a level of disappointment, a certain level of frustration and and I think this also had to do very much with our relationship dynamic, which is what has read led me on the road to where I am now in my life, which has educated me about what kind of life I do want. And there was a dynamic in our relationship where, you know, and this is, this is hard to fare but, but it was, it's just the truth that up until, you know, in that time being married, I really didn't feel like I had come into my manhood. I had a relationship with my ex wife that I experienced, as you know, we were both again. This is not about blaming her in the slightest, but it was really this, this sort of getting to know myself as a man, and being able to be a dominant man in that relationship was not welcome. I didn't feel that it was welcome or and you know, what's interesting is he could, he could totally disagree, and there may be some truth to that. I may be held. I didn't have the space to be able to find that in myself in that relationship. And it wasn't until we became until we separated. And there was a moment, like two days after we separated where I had an epiphany. I had this total awareness, as I was still seeing, you know, seeing the family every single day after we separated and everything. I was making breakfast for the kids and and so I'd go over to the house and spend time with the family, etc. And I just was walking home this day, and I had this light bulb moment and of realization of, Wow, I was not treating her the way I want to treat my partner. And I had to, you know, I had to send a message and just say I'm really sorry about that. So, yeah, so that was just a realization of not being the person that I wanted to be. I'm

Janelle Orion 13:12

gonna invite you to pause for a second. Adam there. I just really want to honor what you just shared, right and I have no doubt that there are bravehearts listening right now, who can relate to what you just shared that we often especially I remember you and I having a conversation about this, about I remember you saying, like, after you got divorced, you learned more about yourself in the year after divorce, and you did all this year too. I feel that was very true for me, and part of that journey is not only Oh, I get to like, discover the parts of myself that were quiet, that I that didn't get to be fully expressed, but then I also have to face the parts of myself that I didn't like how I was, and that not only to myself, but into the person that I did actually love. And that that is this journey home to ourselves, is it can be a painful one. It takes a lot of courage. And I really see you. I've seen you, and I respect that. Thank

Adam Mackstaller 14:08

you. The thing that I'll add is that as difficult as that was, it really was the most important thing, and it was, you know, for me, it was very scary to make that break again. I didn't feel like I was in my power, in that relationship as a man, and it took me, it took me making that decision to align with myself at that at that moment that was then the thing that opened up my whole life, it just gave me the room and the permission to come back to myself.

Janelle Orion 14:45

How did that express itself? Right? When you like, oh, I want to align with myself. What did that mean?

Adam Mackstaller 14:53

It's interesting, because I so much of what happened. Happened next was like taking a deep breath. It was like, it was having a whole bunch of experiences in my life, dating experiences, etc, that were it was kind of like getting this clean break, and because of the circumstances, because I wasn't in, like a day in, day out, job, etc, I was running my business, but it was, you know, I was very fortunate not to have to be there every day. So I really had this space in my life to be experimenting. And so what I was really experimenting with was in my own heart and and I was experimenting in relationship with others, in friendships, in what's really interesting is it wasn't really about any of the doing. It was all about the being so so for me, it wasn't like my doing. I started doing other stuff, etc, that was that was more aligned. It was much more about me getting to know myself and opening my own heart and experimenting in of being vulnerable and being open in relationships and really showing up fully and like letting go of this idea that somehow, I think, really gaining access to the awareness that that, you know my Heart and my this is my full self expression, and whether or not I'm received on the other end in life, whether it's clients or friends or girlfriends or whatever, that is really irrelevant. It's much more about the authenticity for me of showing up for myself. So that was what it looked like. It looked like it looks like having vulnerable conversations and and and also creating boundaries. I think the other really important part of that was boundaries. Of this is, you know, these are the areas in my life that I'm willing to compromise, and here's where I'm not willing to compromise. And that's what really started bringing me back into my power, I think, and started opening myself up to finally find myself as a man. Was this clarity around the boundaries and my power and dthen the last thing was starting to see myself through others eyes, like starting to hear the reflections of how who I was in the world. This is, this is actually incredibly important. This one piece

Janelle Orion 17:26

you start to experiment with being vulnerable and with being coming from your heart space. And I'm curious what made you do that? Like, are there books that you read? Were there like, how did you figure out that that was one of your path, part of your path, of coming home to yourself?

Adam Mackstaller 17:47

I had a couple of experiences. I had a series of MDMA journeys that, truthfully, was a big part of that self awareness for me that opened something up inside of me that brought me deeper into myself, for sure, and that, I think, really opened up this whole other piece of my energy in my life that I just hadn't been able to access before. So so I think through those experiences that sort of opened the door, and then I just kept stepping through that. But that was the invitation, if you will. Was, was those initial learning experiences for me, the

Janelle Orion 18:32

other thing I'm hearing you say is a theme, is this like manhood piece, right? And being a man, so is, whereas there some teachers or books that you were reading regarding that that was like, oh, there's something here. I know you. I've shared books with you, and so that was something we'd spoken

Adam Mackstaller 18:52

about. Definitely, I think over the years, I've had, I've had a couple of different very influential pieces of my journey that that came from the outside. One of them was David data is Way of the Superior Man. So that piece, that one book I have, I have returned back to that. I've even shared it with my son and share it with all the men that are that I show up in my life, that are on some sort of similar journey. And I find it to be incredibly valuable. It really talks about us living in our authenticity, and it talks about for me, that's what it really helped me. What it really also helped me to do was start to understand the feminine and so my role as masculine man. That was also this whole the divorce piece for me was the beginning of starting to see myself as a masculine man, you know, reflected back to me through the world and through other people's eyes. I started to realize, oh, this is actually who I am. And that just kept unfolding and unfolding. So that was one. It was the way the Spirit Man. And then I had taken your advice, you know, and I did a masculine feminine relating course with omra Pawnee. And that was, was it the weekend long course. And to be honest, it was, it was just again. It was like a this permission moment in my life where all of a sudden I saw myself clearly as a masculine man, and it gave me permission to be in relationship with the feminine and and really to be in what my role is as a masculine man, holding holding the feminine and how to love and support and hold and nurture the feminine. d

Janelle Orion 20:51

as I hear you coming into the manhood and grasping that masculine. What prevented you from doing that before, like what was the block for the path of that manhood. I

Adam Mackstaller 21:04

really feel like I was, I was living inside of everybody else's rule set. I wasn't. I was living inside of the societal rule set. I wasn't living in my own body and and when I started living in my own body and feeling my own power, and then, and then watching how the world reacted to me in my power, that just was this constant unfolding invitation into myself that was Like this constant positive feedback for me that this is actually I'm just being invited to be myself. And so it was before I think I was very much about my, my appearance, my my a lot of it is, I think, this storyline about how men are supposed to treat women and women's, women's everything is ahead of men's, everything you know, Happy Happy wife, happy life concept, and I really don't subscribe to that anymore. I think that it's our own authentic journey. It's my authentic journey that is so important. And then through me being whole, then I can hold I can hold the feminine. I can allow the feminine to be, to to be held and and then I can be in my real power. But if I feel like I have to give myself away constantly in order for everybody else to be okay, that is not the right foundation for me, that

Janelle Orion 22:41

is fucking amazing, like that. That is, like, such a series of mic drop moments, like because, and this is really what I was getting at there. I'm just like, What do you mean? Like that you didn't get this manhood message, right? Because this is, you know, it definitely was more of a manhood message when we were growing up, at least than there is now, but you're saying because you felt like you had to give it away. It didn't feel like you were claiming yourself too. Yeah, I think

Adam Mackstaller 23:10

it's like, you know, put your own gas, you know, your own your own oxygen mask on before helping others and and I had not done that. I was trying to take care of everybody else before I was taking care of myself. So how can I be a powerful man if I'm if I'm just giving myself away and I'm not, I don't have boundaries. I don't I'm not firm, I'm not clear, I'm not on my mission. I'm not. How can I be a powerful man?

Janelle Orion 23:34

I get to share this because I've known you for so long, right? Basically your entire adult life. I met Adam the moment he met his, his ex wife, from an outsider in your late 20s, 30s, right? You actually were accomplished. You were very driven. You did many incredible physical feats and adventures and things like that. And the difference in what you're describing is that there was something like, I think someone and you actually reflected this back, like someone might have thought you were being actually very selfish for a lot of your life, because there were lots of things that you were doing for yourself. What I see and hear and have witnessed and have experienced is your heart is now open, and I can feel it as you are choosing yourself, whereas before. And so then, in that way, it doesn't feel selfish to me whereas before, if there's and this is now my own production of if I can't feel someone's heart and they're choosing themselves, and it does feel selfish, there's something in that, like your your heart opening feels like a very big part of your manhood coming online in a way that's received by the feminine.

Adam Mackstaller 24:50

Thank you for that. I think there is so much truth to that that my ability to just they. Like the I guess, how I would say it now is this, I don't need to reference who I am on the outside, outside of myself. I'm referencing inside of myself, who I am. I'm not referencing outside anymore. Referencing inside. That's where my groundedness is, that's where my power is, that's where my that's where my masculine is.

Andrea Enright 25:23

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, the reference inside instead of outside. So it's, it's you, and just, it's just Adam instead of Adam, based on this context,

Adam Mackstaller 25:33

yeah, based on everybody else's thoughts, beliefs, opinions, right?

Janelle Orion 25:39

Why don't people reference inside

Adam Mackstaller 25:45

first, I can just speak for myself in saying that, and this is maybe where I've not done the biggest service to my children, because I think it's, you know, I wasn't there yet in their upbringing. But I think the power for me of not having to do it perfectly, or having some exterior yardstick, thinking that somehow the yardstick is outside of ourselves, and what in really, you know, the theme of my life, the the the mission that I, that I'm on now, is, it's to the internal version and the external version. My internal version is to evolve my soul. That's my life. Mission is evolve my soul and and to become a better man, not by anybody else's yardstick, but by mine, and then the external mission is in service of others. I mean, for me, I think to answer your question that, why don't other people? Why do we reference outside? I think we just are, we're tribal, we're we're we're meant to be together, and we're meant to fit in. You know, there's so much of our societal, societal norms that comes from, you know, our deep ancestral history of saying you've got to fit in, otherwise you're going to get kicked out of the tribe. On one hand, it's there's an irony here, because I think that by fitting in by other people's yardstick, we're just living this unfulfilled life. But when I actually fit into myself on my own yardstick, that's when I'm so much more accepted in the tribe. I'm so much more wanted in the tribe is when I'm authentic to myself and when I'm serving others and I'm doing my thing. So I think, I think we, we live in a bit of a paradox in this life of what it means to fit in. Does that mean, you know, accommodating everybody else, or does it really mean being authentic to ourselves?

Janelle Orion 27:57

Yeah, beautiful, which I'm also guessing, is it required some things to unlearn?

Adam Mackstaller 28:02

Yeah, I think that that definitely the unlearning was around the using others, first for me and and not having clean boundaries and and really, I think my, one of my bad habits was, and this came from my childhood, but really referencing everybody else's well being. You know, as a child, I think we were the center of the universe and everything is because of us. And I had some challenging things happen when I was younger, and and I think through those challenging things, I became hyper alert of my surroundings, referencing How is everybody else doing around me? I mean, I remember being a young child and watching everybody's behavior and relating it back to me as if it was my doing how they were responding. And so I think that that I really had to unlearn that everybody's having their own experience, and I'm not the center of everybody's world. They're not thinking about me 24/7 and I'm not the reason they feel, you know, I have a certain impact on people, right? But when they I may have an impact on someone like in a relationship, there's part of that that I've done that's partly mine, but then there's part of it that they then run that through their whole life, experience their wounds, their traumas, their challenges, and that I can't own, right? That's not mine. So I think it's important for me that that piece of unlearning, that I'm not responsible for everything that happens after that point, whatever they've gone through and their work, everybody has their work, so I can't be responsible for other people's work. And I've unlearned. In that as I grow,

Janelle Orion 30:03

something that's coming out for me is the mirroring of the masculine and the feminine of our experience of what we have to unlearn. You know how we have to go inward? You know you said, oh, when you went inward, you found your masculine. Well, when I when I went inward, I found my feminine, right? So it's a matter, and it's not actually even to do with biology, but it's goes inward, and what's true for us on the inside. And so like, at this, like, meta level, right? We're talking about, in your case, you're beautifully expressing the masculine journey. We've talked about the feminine. And yet, as humans, the journey is the same. It's like listen to the body and go inwards. So I'm curious as far as well. One thing you you've actually mentioned having your son, who's a teenager, read the Way of the Superior Man. So I'm curious as a mid life man right now, how you're wanting to leave your legacy around masculinity and obviously your child is one way, but, or do you see a way of helping other men and women come home to themselves through this path that you've been on?

Adam Mackstaller 31:19

You know, I have my day job, I have my work, I own a business, and that is a service to people. You know, this is, that's one part of my life. I've really discovered this whole other part of my life that's really around serving men and women, and it's, it's really a new, fledgling, fledgling endeavor for me. I'm really in the discovery right now of what that looks like, but a lot of it is through, you know, I'm in men's groups and and so getting to work and mentor men on their journey as well, and be a part of other men's journey. That's a big that feels like a big calling for me. That's very it's powerful, because what I really do see is I see that so many men are not connected in their own full own self. To be able to hold women and their full self, it takes a lot to hold that container for a woman, and it has to be so strong and so firm that it's so trustworthy that a woman can truly unravel. I see so many relationships where women don't what is missing is this true trust of their partner. And if women could truly trust that their partner had them and held them, they could really relax and melt into their partner. Yeah, so that is the some of the work that I see for my future, and I don't know, don't know quite how that's unfolding yet, but also through, you know, through my experience of doming women as well, and being able to provide that because as a DOM, I think that's one of the most powerful things, is that I get to hold this container and allow a woman to feel that strength so clearly, even if it's not my partner, that that they can feel that strength and that clarity and those boundaries so firmly that They can truly start to unfold, and in the unfolding, we get to see ourself. That is the power of it. It's a journey of ultimately leading people back to their higher self of who we are in as beings. And that is what that's what doming is for me. It's being able to hold this incredible container.

Janelle Orion 33:40

I think I feel as a woman that I want to take some responsibility in this, in what happens the scenario you just described, the man isn't quite connected to himself enough to hold the woman who can then unravel, right? Is what I heard you say. And while I do think that's true, and it's also been my experience. I'm curious what you think about how much society has changed in the last, say, 40 years, and how much women are now more in that masculine role. Because I feel as though I was being in the masculine and I wasn't leaving room for my partner. Now, I'm not blaming just me. We, you know, we both played a part in this, but some of it was just like, there was no space for that, because I was in charge, and I was getting shit done, and I was going, going, going, and he's just like, Okay, you just do it. So I just want to, like, Have you had experience with that? Or how do you see that playing out in the dynamic and on the path for men to manhood.

Adam Mackstaller 34:43

Yeah, I think it's a it's really, you know, I think of masculine and feminine as it's Yin Yang, you know, that's what the essence of yin yang is. There. They are 5050, to coming together to create the whole. They. Are equal, but different. And so they're, they're equal halves. They're, they're totally equal. And yet we are so different, and if we're this is how I how I see the this unfolding is that if a man can't hold that container if a man can't create the space and being as masculine in his role in him. And I just like to think about it, it's not like it's not okay that women are in their masculine women are kicking ass in the world. I think women are doing better than they've ever done in terms of their productivity. I mean, you guys are just fucking kicking ass, and I think men are intimidated by that in a lot of ways, and and women feel empowered. But I think somewhere in there that if, if we don't get in our lane when it comes to being in relationships, it's not that it doesn't work, because I lived in a relationship for 22 years, but I don't think we were in our lane. I don't think we were in our in our place, and I take responsibility for that, because I don't think that I held the boundaries of that container clearly enough that he could felt confident enough to surrender. Now, if I create the container, and if I create the space, and then my partner doesn't surrender, my partner can't step into the feminine and release into that container, then that is their work. That is their responsibility. But it's still my responsibility to hold that powerful container and not get frustrated. You know, there, it's a dance. It's a it's a dance. To we both have to be participants in this evolution together. And if I create the container, but my partner doesn't step in, or they don't, they're not willing to surrender, I can't go any further than that. That's as far as I can go. So, so we're both responsible, and part of it is the risk of surrendering into the container, and part of it is the risk of holding this container and and feeling my power as a man, and being able to be really clear that this is my role. This is my job. And I will tell you, I mean, the thing that's so amazing about this evolution for me is, never have I felt more myself, never have I felt more myself when, for me, when I have been able to do this and be able to provide this, This gift, it's like, it's like my heart's calling for me to be able to hold my partner so with so much clarity and power. It's my lane. This is this is who I am. This is what I want in my life.

Janelle Orion 37:55

Thank you for articulating that so beautifully. No further questions. That's what came up. Is you? I was like, Okay, I get it now, yeah, I understand you

Janelle Orion 38:09

spoke about being a dominant man in your life and then also being a DOM in relationship. Can you differentiate those? But bring them back to how are they different in relationship to yourself? Are they? Are they two different types of DOMs? Or how do you show up differently or the same?

Adam Mackstaller 38:25

I'll start by saying it's a journey first of all, so this may be an evolving answer to this question. In the world, I have to as a dominant man, I have to have more grace. I have to have more room for movement, because people aren't in agreement with me around our roles together. So there isn't a contract when you walk out into the world as a dominant man that says people are going to respond to you in this way, and they're going to agree with you, and they're going to do they're going to take the coaching, they're going to take the direction my clients aren't going to necessarily agree, and do what I ask them to do, or take my my my guidance on that. Right, everybody has their sovereignty. They get had they get to have that say. So what I find is that being out in the world, it's, it's, it's held more loosely my dominance. I allow things to move and flow through me with less grip. I'm not gripping onto a result or an outcome or an expectation of people out in the world. So clearly now, when I'm in a DOM sub relationship, there is an agreement. We have a contract. We have a set of agreements that we understand the personal dynamic. And there is a I'm in charge, and my sub is surrendering to me. So there is much more of it. Is a it's more defined, there's more boundaries. There's. More clarity in a DS in a masculine feminine, you know, it's I, you know, sometimes I struggle with, you know, my, my, my partner resist the word DOM sub, because there is a public phenomenon understanding belief about what that means. And I think the reality of it is much more. You could very easily just call this masculine feminine, but it's like a, it's like a, it's a partnership or an agreement that that creates this very deep, connected connection, that that then provides this incredible opening on the other side, I hope I got to that distinction between the outside world and then this inner world.

Janelle Orion 40:50

What I would like to say is that the DOM sub dynamic isn't so much about what it looks like. And I think Adam explained this and just Braveheart, just as a reminder, I'm a professional dominatrix, so what Adam is describing, I also hold that space with clients, but that when he mentioned he is in service to the higher self of his submissive, or in his case, the feminine who's in front of him, right? It doesn't actually matter what it looks like. It might involve whips and chains and it may not. It might involve cuddling and caressing and doing hair and bathing and softness, and it can look an infinite number of ways, but the DOM is attuning within this this contract in this container, so it's not so much about the action, it's not so much about the doing. It's more about the being. Tying it back to what Adam was saying earlier, he's being a role, and in being that role, the submissive and or slash feminine, gets to relax, gets to surrender, and there's a blossoming that happens. And if I may, to tie back what I heard Adam say Is that him being in that role of holding this container in service for this submissive feminine to surrender and to blossom has him feeling his truest version of himself

Adam Mackstaller 42:19

correct. So for me, when I'm in a dominant when I'm in that space and I'm in relationship with another person, there is something that happens that I me, Adam disappears. It's not about me. This is about the other person there is. And there is something that happens that I because of the work that I've done in my heart, whatever it is, I cannot explain to you the why, but I am able to see other people, and I'm able to see through all their shit, and I'm able to notice where they're getting hung up, and then in my role as a DOM, I am giving slight reference, coaching assignments, things to guide them through their felt experience in their life, to see themselves more clearly. I hold this space I see someone so clearly, and I can I can sense their heart, I can sense their spirit. I can sense what is holding them back, and then I lead them and lead them through this process of releasing, seeing and getting to know themselves more deeply. And it all happens inside of this container. So it may literally be an assignment to journal every day. I want you to journal every day, and I want you to spend 30 minutes minimum, and I want you today. I want you to talk about this. There may be a physical component to it. There may be it's through my own feeling and intuition, my intuition, through this life experience of evolution that I've been on, my intuition, has gone up dramatically. And I think that there is a purity around my intuition that I just trust it and I follow it, and I give directing and guidance based on that intuition, and it's all in service of helping people remove the blocks that are holding them back in their life, keeping them from their higher self. That's my role. That's what I do.

Janelle Orion 44:36

Yeah. Thank you so much. Like, I basically understand this at a whole new level than even I understood it for the last three months as I was talking to Janelle. So yeah, thank you. That's I get it.

Janelle Orion 44:50

It's to wrap this up. Is there anything Adam on your journey home to yourself? More that we haven't touched on that you want to share with brave hearts.

Adam Mackstaller 45:06

Interestingly, I think one of the last big hurdles in my life right now has been this integration from my own childhood and coming to grips with that this shit is never going to go away, right? Like, like, these are just parts of who I am and so, so, more than trying to get over the things that hold me back, it's more about integrating them and accepting them as part of who I am, versus trying to get on the other side of them. It's like a It's there's a certain loving and acceptance that's required for me that's coming up next. I mean, this is just my journey. That's what's up for me. Is, how do I love and accept these parts of myself that I have, that I pushed into the shadow, and now, how do I bring them back out of the shadow, and how do I integrate them with love, even when they misbehave, you know, and they make, they make a scene, and they they, that's part of me evolving my soul. That's what's next for me.

Andrea Enright 46:19

Wow. Thank you for sharing so vulnerably and just really telling us what's going on for you right now.

Adam Mackstaller 46:27

You're so welcome. Thank you both

Janelle Orion 46:29

and for letting us feel your heart right in the tender moments that you shared. So welcome. Okay, Braveheart. That was as we close out this series, this 12 part series where we, Andrew and I have interviewed each other, we've interviewed experts, we've interviewed bravehearts. I feel Adam, has this been beautiful, like capstone of, yeah, of bringing in this journey home to ourselves and how it allows us to just feel and be feel and be more. Yeah, thank you Adam. Thank

Andrea Enright 47:09

you guys, thank you bravehearts for listening. We'll see you in the next season. Bye. Bye,

Janelle Orion 47:20

totally

Adam Mackstaller 47:21

never saw this coming. Did we

Janelle Orion 47:27

far from left field that was like left field all the way at the horizon?

Adam Mackstaller 47:32

Yeah, crazy,

Andrea Enright 47:35

wow. I mean, I really, I just have to say, I don't like I just had a really aha moment about the DOM thing. Like, like, Oh, you're just, you're a therapist, like, but you're doing it in this different approach. I mean, I'm simplifying it, but I'm wanting to simplify it just

Adam Mackstaller 47:53

to like, yeah, it's, it's like, the, it's like, the deepest service of someone's soul. We've seen them so vulnerably and and being able to hold this space and being trusted so much to take such good care of someone and to and to have to be that level of integrity, that that I am so reliable, because I'm in such a special place to be able to hold someone like that. There is a very deep partnership there, very special,

Janelle Orion 48:35

yeah, because I would say different. You're right. Andrea, it's like, it's like therapy, but, but that what I have get. I've given many people my words, right? But what I have given, sir, was this, this part of myself that I had not let anyone else see, that like this part, this surrender piece, that was this a part of me, right? But this part of me was very, very hidden, even from myself and the trust required in me, of me to choose who I would allow to see that part and hold that part is the vulnerable part that's different, that's different than just oh, here's my words in my mind and my story.

Adam Mackstaller 49:23

And I think there's almost this other, this very special nuance to this, that is, there is a this very special thing about it's like having this, this, this the container to be able to surrender into where we can admit it to ourselves. It's like this. It's like this. It's truly this place where we can actually say, oh my god, that this is actually me, and I need this very safe place, very safe place to see myself. Yourself to know that it's okay and there's no repercussions here, and that I can actually admit to myself, this, this thing about this awareness, without again, trying to push it into the shadow, trying to trying to deny it from myself, and it's like, So are

Janelle Orion 50:23

you saying to note like your surrender? Are you surrendering to the fact that you can surrender to someone else, or are you surrendering to the fact that like that to everything you are

Adam Mackstaller 50:35

for what I witness is, is that holding the space and allowing someone to be so cleanly held in this space together, so deep down inside that there, there. It's like those moments where you're like, half asleep, where you sort of acknowledge, like, oh, I have this thing about myself. It's almost like you need to, you need to have this incredibly safe place to see to for us, to see ourselves and to be able to admit to ourselves. This is, this is a part of me and and I, that's my experience of it is that there is that, that that is part of what we do. No. Would you agree

Janelle Orion 51:28

yes in Andrea's case, I would say the answer is yes to both things you asked, right? Because in our case, are we judging ourselves for just even being willing to surrender. And so that's that, that's a layer, right there. Oh, I'm willing to surrender. Now, can I now I'm going to judge myself. And now, can I accept the fact that I want there's part of me that's literally dying to surrender. So there's that piece. And then once we surrender, what reveals itself like, what's the blossoming that comes? And then all those parts are what Adam was just talking about. There of like, oh, and now, you know, in my case, it was like, Oh, I'm a bad girl. Good student came out after I had surrendered, and I had never admitted to myself that I was a bad girl before.

Janelle Orion 52:18

Oh, my God. I think this is kind of scary. Well, what is gonna come out now, now that I can surrender, because I've just started surrendering, and I'm just like, oh, I can surrender. Fuck. I don't want to do more personal growth. I'm fucking tired of myself.

Janelle Orion 52:33

I would say, I would say that things that have come out of my surrender have been joy. Yeah.

Janelle Orion 52:39

Okay, yeah. I mean, I'm kind of kidding, but like, but I'm also like, shit, what's going to come out next? Go ahead. Adam, yeah.

Adam Mackstaller 52:45

So here's something that I just got done talking this morning about, because, you know, this weekend, I had a really big weekend with Emily and and we did a medicine journey yesterday, and she there's this part of her that is like resisting, like resisting surrendering to me, and and, and when we really started to get underneath it, what she's really afraid of is that if I really surrender to you, I will lose myself. I will lose myself if I truly surrender and and, and really let all it, let it, all of my defenses down and, and what I'm proposing is that it's actually the opposite. It's so scary to surrender. It's so scary to really let go, but when we really do, what we really do is we come back to ourself, and in that surrendering to me, he gets the ultimate freedom inside of herself to live her most alive life. And and it's so scary, and it's a paradox. It is an absolute paradox. This, if I, if I'm fully surrendering to to another human being, where, where, where am I? And yet, on the other side of it, I think there is total freedom,

Janelle Orion 54:20

because where are you? Is you? It's actually like, Oh, where are you? It's like that. It's the thought that you're giving yourself away, and yet what you're doing is giving you're surrendering to yourself, to give yourself back to yourself. But the DOM is the vehicle that's right, medium, the modality That's right. But if when the DOM is in integrity, and this is why the trust and the discernment is so critical when they are then that's all they care about. They only care about returning you to yourself,

Adam Mackstaller 54:51

that's great. And this is the work that I feel like has to be done, that needs to be done in the world with men, because so many men are. Not reliable. They're takers, right? They're they're not in pure service and and so there women feel like they get burned because they had a bad experience with a man where because he wasn't in full integrity, and he wasn't in his full power. And so I see so much of my work of, how do I help men come back to themselves so they can hold women powerfully with integrity? That that piece, I think, is so important, because otherwise it just leaves people feeling like they got burned. It's like, it's like, yeah, dropped and, and, you know, even like Emily this morning saying, you know, I never thought sex was good, because I never even got anywhere near the levels of that we are. So sex was like, take it or leave it. I It's like that same analogy in the surrender, where did I go? I just kind of lost myself right there. But, but that idea of, you know this, the more we open, the more that opens for in our own self, in our own soul, I think to to for our own expansion. So, so that's okay before I go really off. I think there's something powerful there.

Janelle Orion 56:27

Thank you. Yeah, it's really powerful. It's all, yeah, it's all really, really big and really poignant. I appreciate it.

Janelle Orion 56:40

Okay, so we are complete so, and I also, I just want to acknowledge, Adam, sir, that you just did something really brave and courageous, because I know you said you are, you are not out front facing, not only about this topic, but in general, like he's never been on a podcast before. I think you said, and so really that this was a huge edge for you, whoa, just to be on the podcast and then to be talking what we talked about. And so I'm deeply bowing This is

Andrea Enright 57:09

you, yeah, yeah. And I really, I really, I just have to say a couple more things. Remember, was always talking a lot. So the strange thing is that two of the things I remember most in our very brief time together was, don't fucking tell anyone and get rid of those pictures, right? Which I totally get and that no problem with. But that was like, Dude, stop taking pictures, and Right, right? And that's totally fine. You can still be that way, and there's nothing wrong with that, but there's a, you know, there's obviously just a massive shift since then, and because I was not getting it at the time, out of all the crazy things, like, you once took me downstairs and called an Uber and took me downstairs and put me in a car and said, Okay, you're gonna be fine. And put me in the car and like, take care like, and said something to the Uber driver, make sure she gets home, take care of her and put me in the car. Very, very simple gesture, but these sort of masculine things were, like something that it was very just I wasn't getting and I was wanting. So it's just interesting that that's social part, like you're talking so much about manhood on that masculine and

Adam Mackstaller 58:40

like, well, here's an Endrew, here's something so amazing is that you were at the very beginning of my journey, like like that, that, literally, I had a conversation. I had a conversation with with Shannon at that right at that moment, and she was like, he said something. And I was bewildered. He said, she said. I was like, Go do what you want. Like, go date whoever you want. I thought again, like women want freedom women want. And she's like, No, blame me. I want you to blame me. And I was like, what? Like, what the fuck is going on? You know, I thought what you want as women is you want to be free, and you want to be able to do whatever. And it was like this light bulb moment of, oh my god, I have been operating on the wrong operating system for a long time. And that moment, that moment of clarity was it wasn't like I saw the path at that point. What I just realized is something is wrong here. My belief system is not lining up with the feminine right now at all. And that was like an opening point. Yeah, that was this tipping point that started. Into much more, into this journey of like, what? What does it mean to be dominant? What does that look like? So you you were right there. That was the very beginning for me. Yeah?

Andrea Enright 1:00:13

Wow, yeah. Thank you. Thanks for sharing Beautiful.

Adam Mackstaller 1:00:20

Love you guys, thank you. Okay,

Janelle Orion 1:00:21

love you so much. You.