Ep118: Part 2/8, Andrea & Kevin’s Blueprint for Modern Love: Saturday Check-Ins are So Hot Right Now!

Hey Bravehearts, curious how to start a romantic relationship at 50? After divorce, polyamory, therapy, personal growth and years of unlearning cultural BS, Andrea and Kevin share the actual tools, conversations, rituals, and agreements they use to create emotional safety, embodied intimacy, a sense of freedom and a relationship that doesn’t require self-abandonment. This is about two grown humans stay AWAKE and choosing each other from a place of wholeness. There’s a nod to Susan Cain’s “Quiet”, Betty Martin’s “The Art of Receiving and Giving”, Jack Morin’s “The Erotic Mind”, Attachment Theory, Brené Brown and Esther Perel. You’ll hear: -Why five weeks of Zoom calls set a beautiful stage for a first date

-About Saturday check-ins, eye-gazing and a suggestion box (Yes!)

-About a mealtime prayer is better than a gratitude journal

-How wrestling and rough-housing is part of their intimacy

-Why catching tension early is the secret to a beautiful relationship

TRANSCRIPT:

Janelle Orion 0:00

Janelle, struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy, AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts. Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth.

Andrea Enright 0:54

If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel less alone along the way, we got you

Janelle Orion 1:07

brave hearts. I am so excited because we are getting to meet Andrea's boyfriend today. On our episode, Kevin and Andrea were so gracious and articulating what tools they use to make their relationship work. Yes, it was amazing to be on the podcast with my boyfriend, who I loved so much.

Andrea Enright 1:34

And it's just like such a yeah, just, it's awesome to go through and say, Oh, why are things working? What works for us? You're going to hear our tools, our resources, what we did in the beginning, what we continue to do, why we pray before every meal, even though we're not religious,

Janelle Orion 1:53

and why we have a suggestion box. So, yeah, so brave hearts, yeah, you're in for a treat. I just think there's so much wisdom in hearing how other couples do it. Because it, because all of us have been taught things, and all of us have to unlearn things, and all of us have different, unique turn ons, and Andrea shares some of hers, and it's giving Leslie listening to her gives me more permission to follow the desires that I have. Yay. So thanks, Andrea. Okay. Enjoy. Hi, brave hearts. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea, and welcome to season six. How to design a relationship that works. This is our second episode, and I am absolutely thrilled and honored to be interviewing Andrea and her boyfriend Kevin about their relationship. And this is going to be, yeah, a really juicy podcast for me, because I'm going to learn a lot that I don't know about the two of them. And so I'm excited because I know, the one thing I do know is that Andrea gives such a huge permission field, and for all of us listening, that we are going to get new permissions out of how she and Kevin are doing relationship together,

Andrea Enright 3:14

that's true permission field. I like that. Janelle, yeah, all

Janelle Orion 3:19

right, so for podcast for brave hearts who may not know. Andrea Enright is 50. She's a mom, a polyamorous coach, a writer, a podcaster and speaker who helps people figure out what they want and ask for it. Andrea likes to sing and dance and is a sucker for art galleries and garage sales, which all these things I do know. Kevin is 56 and is a digital marketer. He's fond of cooking, trail running, meditation, coffee and croissants. They've both been married once before, and while they've known each other since 2013 which for those counting, is a long time ago, they've only been dating since May of 2025 so we're coming up like rounding into their their one year. Kevin and Andrea are in a monogamous relationship, and both live in Denver, but not together. So welcome, Andrea and Kevin. Thank you. So let's just start with the start start with you. Andrea, can you give us more context about your relationship?

Andrea Enright 4:25

Here's the thing. So a long time ago, in 2013 Kevin and I worked at the same co working studio, back when co working was like, Ooh, a new, cool, fun thing, right? And it was in uptown, and we were in a mastermind together. And then I think we stopped going to that co working space, and we realized that we were in some other kind of mastermind together. And then we kept in touch over the years, but only as friends and colleagues like a little bit on LinkedIn. I helped him with his website. I wrote some copy for. Him. And then we circled back, and I helped him with his resume. And then I don't know we would just chat every so often, I guess, usually through LinkedIn, right?

Andrea Enright 5:10

Kevin, yeah, yep, maybe a telephone call here and there when you were helping me with my resume.

Andrea Enright 5:16

Yeah, exactly. So that's how it all started. And then, then in I guess it was the fall of 2024, my now ex husband moved out, and I remembered that Kevin was very handy, that he knew how to fix things. And I was like, Oh, I'm gonna need help with that, because I'm really don't know how to do that shit. And my husband is leaving, and so I literally reached out on LinkedIn and said, Hi, I wondered if you want to do some trade. I think I'm gonna need some things fixed. Like, do you need some help with your resume? And he said, Okay, great. Like, let's zoom and reconnect. Wow. So then we did, and we zoomed on, like, April, April 11, and then we had a good time talking. And I was like, Oh, do you want to talk again next week? And then we did, and then we talked for every week for the

Janelle Orion 6:12

next five weeks. Because what I remember, right? Kevin wasn't actually in Denver at that you know, he lives in Denver, but at that moment, he wasn't in Denver, so that's why you were talking on the phone, yeah, or on Zoom Yeah.

Andrea Enright 6:23

That was the context of the Zoom calls, was that I was in California for a few months, so we, we didn't have the ability to get together face to face if we'd wanted to at that point.

Andrea Enright 6:33

Yeah. And then he moved back to Denver in June, and we went on our, I guess, first date, and we went to a yoga class and had dinner. And that was the beginning. That was

Janelle Orion 6:47

the beginning. I remember that day. You were like, I really like this guy, but what happens? What happens if I meet him? What's gonna happen? And then this is what happens. Nine months later, we're talking on a podcast together.

Andrea Enright 7:02

Kevin, do you have anything to add about that? About that beginning?

Kevin Masten 7:07

Well, I think the beginning probably maybe gave us a bit of a head start that was like it was unusual, but I think it was, it was a it was a good reconnect for us, because we both appreciate really deep conversation. And so I think that was one of the things that we initially recognized about each other, that, you know, that we had a connection with, like, like, really being able to dig in deep. I think that first zoom call might have been probably scheduled for the typical, you know, 50 minutes an hour call. And I think we were, I think we were probably on for maybe a couple of hours, and then that, like that became a consistent pattern with all of our calls.

Andrea Enright 7:48

Yeah, weren't even texting then, though, like, even for like, five that was five weeks. Like, there really wasn't any texting until the very end, no, and it was nice, because there just wasn't any pressure.

Kevin Masten 7:58

Yeah, exactly. It wasn't like, this is a first date situation where, you know, it's either gonna go somewhere. It's not like it was just two friends reconnecting. I was trying to remember when we had, like, seen each other in person, and it was, I mean, definitely before covid, maybe 10 years ago, maybe, you know, maybe not long after we left the co working space and were part of a mastermind. So it's not like we, you know, it was, we just sort of dipped into each other's lives here and there, and traded some messages and, you know, Andrea helped me with my with my personal branding. But yeah, that's interesting,

Andrea Enright 8:33

yeah, yeah. And then just a little bit more about that. Beginning was that it was on our third it was on our third date that I was like, we need to have the RB, DSM conversation, and and bravehearts.

Janelle Orion 8:48

You, many of you know this conversation. We've done many episodes on it, but it's the relationship, like the intimacy framework conversation, that Andrew and I both deeply believe in, where you can, like, set up, like a clarity around where you both stand.

Andrea Enright 9:02

Yeah, so stands for relationships, boundaries, desires, sexual health and meaning. And now there's two more letters. It's getting a little long aftercare and and trauma also. But yes, we had that on the third date. So how, how was that experience for you?

Kevin Masten 9:19

Kevin, I mean, it was unique. That was something that was different. It was great because it immediately we went to, you know, into into deep conversation. So we were used to that, right? We'd already, we'd already developed some kind of a rapport around, you know, our talking. I think that was probably the same, the same date where we started talking about what, you know, what would we want our relationship to look like? And I think a big part of that was, you know, we had this, this blank slate. We had this empty container. So what do we want to bring into that container? What do we want to exclude from that container? Minor and, you know, I think it was really kind of setting the foundation and the stage for for everything that's happened since then. And, you know, in a lot of ways, we really still are having that RB, DSM conversation. I mean, we dip into those topics on a regular basis. And so it's, you know, it's a, you know, it's just baked into us at this point.

Janelle Orion 10:22

I love that. And so Kevin, would you say, do you guys set up a specific time of, hey, let's like, revisit this conversation, or suddenly, are you like, Oh, we're in the desires category, and you just realize you're talking about your desires, like I said, How does, how does revisiting that look?

Kevin Masten 10:38

Yeah, I think it's, it's a little of both. We have regular Saturday check ins to, you know, specifically, set aside time to talk about the relationship and anything that you know, that we might be thinking about, or, or we feel like it's important, and we need to, we need to bring it up, and we need to, you know, set aside time just to focus on that. So, like that happens, and then I think it also really happens, you know, in the moment, in the day to day, we've got the several different other frameworks for relationships that we've we've talked about and we use, and different documents that we have going, that that we dip back into. So it's, you know, it's, both structured and organic, beautiful.

Janelle Orion 11:23

Well, that leads us right into the next question that I have, which is, what makes your relationship work? You know, in the abstract sense, it sounds like, you know, I say abstract, but you've got documents, you've got frameworks, you've got check ins,

Andrea Enright 11:35

yeah, yes, right? And I think, like, there's, we've talked about this, and that is the one of the funny things, is that we talk about our relationship all the time, like we spend hours talking about a relationship, not really on purpose. We just start sometimes, we just start doing it, and we're just exploring, and then we go deeper, and then we go deeper, and we both put a lot of energy into it. But I kind of broke these things down to like into like things. There are things that we can't control that I think does make it work. I mean, part of that's the timing. We both know who we are, and we've done a lot of work on ourselves. Part of it is just compatibility, sexual energy and chemistry, humor, like we have a just a huge overlap of interests, and we're both incredibly intense. I think that's, that's one of the big ones. But also what's really important is that there's, there's no pressure at this point in either of our lives to make a decision. So about living together or about marriage, or about kids or anything that can sometimes make you think, I have to decide right now what's going to happen in the next two years. And I think that freedom really allows us more flexibility and ease.

Janelle Orion 12:51

So what I'm hearing with that is you're both in your 50s, so more kids is off the table, and whether you want to get married or not? Like, that's not a decision. That's like, driving you in any way. Living together might be a question, but it's not, it's, it's, there's no pressure to live together or not live together, and it gets to be an ongoing conversation. So it's what it sounds like, is, you're just, like, kind of in the present with this relationship a lot.

Andrea Enright 13:18

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And then, I mean, the other thing, the other things, I think that make it work. I guess, Kevin, do you want to talk about that? Yeah.

Kevin Masten 13:27

I mean, I think, you know, there's certainly we have shared goals for the future, but, yeah, it's something that we're really to brag a little bit. I feel like we're really good at being very deeply connected in the present, and not, you know, not, not spending a too much time just future casting, like, you know, the present, present moment is what we have. This is, you know, it's all there is. So let's, you know, really, really get deep and, yeah, yeah.

Andrea Enright 13:56

And we just, we realize that we just, we don't spend time on screens much and so, you know, very rarely are we both we think we can just like a couple times have we both been in bed, sitting on our phones and we haven't watched any movies or TV like we keep trying to have a movie night and it keeps failing.

Janelle Orion 14:16

So does that feel different? Does that feel as in new for you. I don't know about you, Kevin, but like, for Andrew, like, I know, like, you know, pop culture, right? Is one of your My differences is that you're so attuned to pop culture, which, to me, comes through a screen. So like, that means that you're stepping away from something, in a way, by being not attached to screens as much.

Andrea Enright 14:37

Yeah, I wouldn't say like that. It's super different. It depends on I mean, in some relationships, I was super into that, and in others, not so much. And I don't watch TV a lot, but I did watch it with a previous partner a lot, so, you know, that was a bonding point for us. And so it's a little bit different, but I think it's just great that we don't feel the urge to do that. We just rather drop in. Conversation or make dinner, or go to yoga or go for a run, or it's not as attracted to it, I think, and that means that we end up talking about a relationship more, I think,

Kevin Masten 15:12

yeah, I still laugh, because sometimes we'll be in conversation, we're making dinner, we're talking about something, and some question comes up. And I think the you know, the habit that I have in any other context is like, Okay, I'll reach for my phone and try to find an answer to that question and like, that just doesn't really happen, which I think is funny,

Andrea Enright 15:34

yeah, yeah, we're much less likely to do that. You know, there are a lot of then just little tools. Like, once we once, I started thinking about all the tools we have and all these little concrete, yeah, I'd love for you

Janelle Orion 15:45

to share them, because I know, you know this is what we'd love to share with our brave hearts anyway. But both of you have done so much work to your point, Andrew, you said that, right? So, like, what are some of the frameworks and skills that you have?

Andrea Enright 15:57

I mean, I think one is that we use Brene Brown's framework for, like, assessing the amount of bandwidth we have at any given moment when we come together. So, you know, we do that probably a few times, not always, but a few times a week. And so we'll say, Okay, what you know, what percentage are you at? Like, how much do you have left today, right? Maybe one of us has 71. Of US has 30. I'm like, okay, so I'll make that up for you, right? Or maybe we both were both at 70, maybe we're both at 30, in which case probably shouldn't do any heavy lifting tonight.

Andrea Enright 16:28

Beautiful. Yeah. Are there others?

Kevin Masten 16:31

Non violent communication is one of the things that we talked about the other day, which I think we, you know, we probably don't follow it to the to the script, because it's, you know, it's pretty structured in the way that the the interactions are laid out, but I think we probably honor the spirit of it. So that's been, I think that's been a big one for us too.

Andrea Enright 16:56

We also kind of started out as this joke, but we now have a suggestion box. Oh my gosh, tell me more. Yeah, I don't know what you had some I know, like, Kevin had some kind of check in. He's like, Oh, I have a I said, Do you have any check ins on Saturday? And he's like, Yeah, but I forgot what it is. And he's like, maybe we should have, like, a box I can, like, put it in so I don't forget. And then we're like, oh, yeah, let's make a suggestion box. Because early on in the relationship, he was like, I've been I've been told that it's really good if a couple can build something together. And at that time, I was like, oh, what should we build? Like, maybe we should build, like, a birdhouse or a tree house, or a house or a boat or all these things. And like, we never landed on anything because didn't make sense. But now we've built a suggestion box, and so we we've covered it in brown paper, and we're decorating it with different like ribbons and and so, yeah, where does it live? Well, right now, it lives at Kevin's house, but really it's up for anything, right? It can be like, you know, Hey, would you stop leaving your towel on the floor. Or it could be, I need to talk about impermanence this Saturday,

Kevin Masten 18:06

yeah, and it may become a traveling suggestion box that the where does it live? Question is one we've talked about too.

Janelle Orion 18:13

Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh. I love this. So tell me a little bit more about these check ins, where, like, so like, you drop things into the suggestion box, and then on Saturdays, you have a check in, and then someone checks the suggestion box, or there might be something else.

Kevin Masten 18:25

I mean, I think it's two different things, although it may end up actually becoming merged into one. But, yeah, when we first started talking about, you know, creating this conscious container that looks like our relationship, a big part of that was safety and and being transparent and and having really good communication skills and, and so that's really kind of where the one to one check ins came from. I don't, I don't remember exact conversation around around that

Andrea Enright 18:55

anything that's coming that's come up in the week, like, we're like, hey, we need to circle back to this time when we had a little bit of a hard discussion,

Kevin Masten 19:03

yeah, yeah, since, because we don't live together and we don't see each other every single day, then the Saturday check in becomes the, you know, it's a fail safe in a way, right? Like nothing is going to, nothing is going to get forgotten. That needs to, that needs to be talked about in the relationship. And so, you know, that's kind of the sacred time where we we dig into that, dig into that space, and anything that needs to be brought to light.

Andrea Enright 19:26

I mean, I think something that I probably learned from you, Janelle And maybe, and probably damassa too, is like that at our one month, I was like, we need to have a ritual. Like, it seems very important that we have a ritual. And so we sat down, and I got a candle, and we both brought a poem or a quote, and we set our intentions for the relationship. And I think that really just like set the stage for giving reverence and meaning to our relationship and what we wanted it to be, and something else we did on the first date, which is really so weird. Weird. I mean, I don't know if I've ever done this any other time, but we were sitting at UNO mas, you know, in the taco place, like, and we were sitting like, there was the place was packed, right? And we were sitting in this table right in the middle of, like, the walkway, right? So we were, like, surrounded by people, and it was very loud. It was right after yoga class. And I don't know why I thought about doing this, but I, but I decided I'm just like, oh, let's pray. So we prayed. We have a prayer that I've been doing with my family for a long time where it's like, you know, thank you for our food, thank you for our family, thank you for our friends. Thank you for this moment. Namaste. Very simple. And so I did that then, and then it just became our thing. So we literally pray before any time that we eat together, and we just are grateful for you know, it can be fun, sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's reverent, sometimes it's short, sometimes it's long, sometimes it's a joke. And we often, like, if we if we have three meals together, we're praying every time we sit down to eat, and we're like, Okay, what should we talk about now? But there's always something to be grateful for.

Janelle Orion 21:10

It's always a prayer first,

Kevin Masten 21:12

yeah, it's a gratitude practice, but it's also an appreciation practice for each other, yeah? Which is good for me, because I'm an introvert, so like, I think of things inside of my head, but I don't always say them, and so that's like, a perfect place for me to, you know, to share something that you know, maybe, maybe would have gone unsaid that day, probably wouldn't have gone unsaid for multiple days in a row. But like to be able to have that affirmation between the two of us is, like, it's, big, yeah,

Janelle Orion 21:41

yeah, I love that. And then Kevin, it's so interesting to hear you say that you know you're an introvert. Andrew is the extrovert, right? And yet, the two of you have found the balance for the two of you to each be able to express in the way that's natural for both of you.

Kevin Masten 21:57

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's that's another ongoing conversation as well. You know, not, I think just in the context of, how do we communicate better? But yeah, like, it's, there's never really been like a stumbling block around that one. I don't think,

Andrea Enright 22:14

yeah, we also do a lot of eye gazing, like way more eye gazing than I've ever done in another relationship. And, you know, whereas we talked about it on our some of our zoom calls originally, and it felt kind of intimidating, yeah, now we don't plan it. We it just just happens spontaneously.

Janelle Orion 22:30

So I'm hearing so much, you know, overlap between the two of you, right? You're whether that's the grace of the timing that you're both in your 50s, where you are in your life, but I'm curious, what is this relationship together and with yourself, because I'm guessing you're both learning a lot about yourselves in this relationship. But what were you taught about relationships that you had to either that you brought into this relationship or that you had to unlearn for it?

Andrea Enright 22:58

Go ahead, Kevin,

Kevin Masten 23:00

we both both grew up in the Midwest. I grew up in Kansas City, Missouri. I think it was, you know, a lot of it is what I wasn't taught, right? Like, you know, I got married when I was in my 20s. I think my sense at that point was, like, if you love somebody, then, like, that's enough, like that that can, that can be enough to sustain a relate, a relationship, but it just isn't. And, like, I didn't have, you know, I didn't have a lot of self awareness at that time. Didn't have really any, any tools. Mean, Brene Brown wasn't around back then, but whoever the relationship expert was, like, I, I couldn't have tapped into that, into that knowledge. So I just was, you know, sort of this, you know, Midwestern guy with good manners, and thought that if I fell in love, then the white picket fence and everything else would fall into place afterwards.

Andrea Enright 23:50

Yeah, and when I first asked him this on the when we were talking about the script, I said, so what were you talking about relationships? And the first thing you said was not enough,

Andrea Enright 24:01

which I think is such a great answer,

Andrea Enright 24:04

like, clearly not enough, yeah. And I think I was just taught like that mind reading was a thing. And, you know, you should know what your partner wants, and divorce means giving up and never go to bed mad, never sleep apart, and a lot of cultural conditioning with perfect television couples. I think also, just like that, I should attune to the other before attuning to myself. And this is something I'm remembering now. Kevin, that we we talked about really early on, was really probably, Gosh, I wonder if I think we talked about it on a zoom call when we were like, oh, something's happening here, and I don't want to speak for you, but like, my fear was like, I don't want to lose myself in this relationship. Yeah, that was just a big like, oh, like, we have to make sure and keep our individual selves. And I think we were both aware of that from the beginning so that that was just, it was really high on our priority list. To me. Sure that that happened,

Kevin Masten 25:01

yeah, yeah, for sure I remember that. I remember that discussion. And, you know, I think that's one of the things that is great about our relationship, is that we both have self awareness around, you know who we are, who we want to be, areas where we might want to improve. And like, I know that, like, we both own that, so we don't have to, we don't have to worry about each other from that standpoint, but we can still, like, lean into supporting each other, you know, knowing that that our partner is, is owning that part of themselves.

Janelle Orion 25:38

Yeah, what's coming up for me and listening to the two of you, I just have this like, warm sensation of, like, melted honey, because I have been with Andrea as she and I have, like, worked so hard to learn the skills that you guys are talking about that are now living and putting into place, and just how painful a relationship is When you don't have those skills. And then to hear like, the two of you talk about, like, Oh, here's this, here's the communication skills, here's the sovereignty, here is, like, the boundaries and the desires and the meaning and the check ins all of these things, then suddenly it sounds like there's a lot of time for, like, laughter and play and fun, which is what we I think most everyone is looking for in a relationship. But we, just, to Kevin's point, weren't taught how to get there.

Andrea Enright 26:27

Yeah, at all. Like, yeah, I just wasn't, I wasn't shown, even though it was shown a good model, it wasn't talked about. I think that's another, another thing, though, that that helps us is that we were both brought up in fairly similar environments, like, emotionally stable, financially stable, fairly. We both had good childhoods, so we're fortunate in that way. Neither of us are bringing capital T trauma into the relationship. Got it. So that's one of the similarities that you guys have. Yeah, yeah. So Kevin, is there anything that Andrea does specifically that really makes the relationship work? Yeah?

Kevin Masten 27:00

I mean, she's from the beginning. She's been she's very authentic, you know, leans into, leans into the relationship. One of the things that she did very early on. This goes back to the introvert topic. She had sent me a text and said that she was reading a book about introverts to try to better understand how my mind worked, and like, I still think about that all the time. The the impact that that had in the moment, and the impact that it still has now is just, is just huge. Yeah. Was it quiet?

Janelle Orion 27:34

By Susan Kane, it was, yeah, yeah. I highly recommend, for any extrovert out there who's in relationship with an introvert, that book is fantastic,

Kevin Masten 27:42

yeah, and I haven't even read it, so that was,

Janelle Orion 27:45

well, you might you know about yourself, it's the extrovert, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really true. And then Andrea, do you have, is there that same question to you? Yeah? I mean, I think

Andrea Enright 27:58

early on, I think I told you this, Kevin is, like, Kevin is just this, like, amazing mixture of, like, Midwest masculine and bohemian, which is really, really hard to find. So, like, you know, there is something that is just like, yummy to me that nobody, not necessarily anybody else, is going to understand. It's just like, I just really enjoy the idea of some guy who can drive a truck and fix things and also likes to look at art and read poetry, right? And Kevin is somehow able to receive whatever I express like, with ease and patience and understanding, like, even if it's hard to hear, even if it's unfamiliar, or if it's really honest. One of the things he does is like, when we're in transition, like, multiple times a day, or, I mean, it depends, but if he senses my anxiety, or if we're like, like, we're not sure what we're doing next, he's like, What do you need, right? And this is just such a simple question, but like, I remember the first time he did it, I was just like, oh, oh, that's, that's really nice. Like, just asking me what I need, and at first, I didn't even know what to say, right? And even the first for a while, I didn't know what to say. But then I realized I can say like, oh, I need to talk, or I need a hug, or I need help with this, or I need space. And I think, you know, he often just expresses gratitude for very simple things. So thanks for coming over today. Thanks for dinner, thanks for laying with me. Thanks for, like, just that constant gratitude. At first I just thought, Oh, you don't have to thank me for that. But, you know, it's it just keeps the gratitude going. Yeah? I mean, he's really helped leave me feel at home in his home as well. There's something that, yeah, we should probably say about the context of this too, is that Kevin has been very patient, because I am really still in the middle of a divorce, like I have not actually gone through with that divorce yet, but the paperwork is not done, but my ex husband moved out, like a year and a half ago, and so I am. I still see him a lot. I obviously have a 16 year old daughter that I am attending to. Do a lot, and Kevin has been very patient with all of that. And what helps is that Kevin was a client of my husband, my ex husband, who's a therapist.

Janelle Orion 30:13

So let's go into that a little bit more. Wait. Right again, right?

Andrea Enright 30:17

So my ex husband is a therapist, and seven years ago, when Kevin and I were talking on LinkedIn, and Kevin was going through something, I was like, oh, maybe you should talk to my husband. He's a therapist. I referred Kevin to my husband, and so when we reconnected, he already knew my husband, and he respected him, and vice versa, right? And my husband already knew him, which is also helpful. Kevin, do you want to say anything?

Kevin Masten 30:46

Yeah, no. I mean, I think on the outside, it seems a little unconventional, but I don't know that there's a lot to dig into there. I've been in relationships with with women that didn't get along with their, you know, with their ex partner and like that. So, you know, it's just, it's difficult. It's difficult on the outside. I can't even imagine what it's like on the inside. So, yeah, I have a lot of respect and empathy for for Andrea and that, in that regard, trying to be the, you know, the best, best parent, best mom she can be. And that's a, you know, that's an amazing thing.

Andrea Enright 31:23

Yeah, I just really, yeah, really appreciate that. There's a lot of, a lot of last minute calendaring and scheduling that has to happen there that Kevin is very flexible with. So, yeah.

Kevin Masten 31:34

I mean, I think that goes back to the communication skills and the, you know, the transparency and trust that we've built.

Janelle Orion 31:42

What's an essential agreement that you guys have that might seem strange to others. I mean, you just discussed, like, like, there's this, like, overlap in terms of, like, the ex husband, which might be same change, but like, yeah, like, what have you guys figured out that works for you, that you didn't, that you were not taught.

Andrea Enright 32:02

So really, it said, I want to be told what to do sometimes, right? I like he can boss me around. And I actually crave that sometimes. And I never would have thought that I wanted that no five or 10 years ago, and now that sounds really good to me.

Janelle Orion 32:23

Oh my gosh. So Kevin, I don't know if you know this, you I'm sure you do. I remember, right? Like, you know I've done pro DOM training. Have done a lot of, like, reading around DOM sub dynamics, and Andrew and I were at dinner. I don't know whenever this was, like, last summer. And we just kind of figured out, Andrea wanted to be a sub some of the time, and it was this, like, we, I think I, like, did, like, a little like, high five cheers. Like, oh my gosh. We just figured it out. Like, this is the whole point of the podcast, to get for us to understand this characteristic, actually about both of us, but specifically about Andrea and relationship that was just so revelatory and so

Andrea Enright 33:10

freeing, exactly it was. And then I just immediately, like, left dinner and drove up to his house, which was like a, you know, a 45 minute drive from where I was, was like, and this was early on before, like, like, I knew it was okay to go to his house unannounced, but I had never done that. So I remember walking in and he's like, Hi. I'm like, Hi.

Andrea Enright 33:29

I have to tell you something. All right,

Janelle Orion 33:34

you have something like, something you figured out about yourself that you're like, I just want to present this to you. And then you didn't know what he was gonna say. You thought it would be okay, but you didn't know

Andrea Enright 33:42

it's totally true. Yeah. And what did you say, Kevin, I don't

Kevin Masten 33:46

remember the exact words, but, but, yeah,

Andrea Enright 33:48

I'm down with that. Yeah, that's what I said.

Andrea Enright 33:53

Like, this is something that you, and I've talked about quite a bit, like, the the underlying part of that is that, and now I'm putting words into, into your mouth, is that, you know, there's freedom to be found there, like you don't have to to worry or have anxiety around as many things. So if you're trying to to, you know, juggle a busy schedule spinning plates like it, it takes some of that, that burden off of you, and conversely, it's a gift to me, because, like, I don't have to mind read, you know, when you when you ask for what you want, or you give me space to make decisions, then I think, over time, we've, we've become more attuned to each other's needs, but at the same time, when Something is explicitly asked for or said, then, you know, it's just like, it's clear communication. There's no, you know, there's no room for confusion.

Andrea Enright 34:48

Yeah, you listening. Bravehearts, he just said, it's a gift when you tell that I tell him what I want or ask Him for what I want, it's a gift when I ask for what I want and but

Janelle Orion 34:57

what I also heard him say. Or you say, rather, like, you want to be bossed around and told what to do sometimes, which means that you probably don't know what he's gonna say, but you're like, in the context, he's got enough information for you to be able to say, okay, great, I'm just gonna do it. And just so you're leaning back into it, right? It's not like, it's like a free fall in every moment, but that you don't like, he doesn't have to, like, say, Is this okay? Is this okay? It's like, this is what we're doing. And then you just say, yes, yeah. And if I don't like it, I can say, of course, right, yeah. And then he can just, like, tease me about having attitude. Topping

Janelle Orion 35:34

from the bottom is

Andrea Enright 35:36

a technical term, oh, topping from the bottom. I've never heard that. I think we should talk about the teasing now. All right, let's talk about the teasing. I asked Kevin also early on, I'm just like, I think we should have more teasing. And I think he was like, at first, you were a little like, I don't know about that.

Kevin Masten 35:53

Yeah, yeah. And that was a separate conversation than the DOM sub conversation, right? Like, I and I don't even think in the beginning it was maybe even a conversation. I think it was just like, you know, you you made it, you made a comment. And yeah, my first thought was, like, this could go really, really off the rails in a bad way. And then, yeah, and then we and then we dug into it a little bit more. And yeah,

Andrea Enright 36:19

I really do like the teasing now, and I'm not someone who actually is good at being teased like I am actually notoriously bad at being teased. Did not know how to deal with teasing in high school when, like, my boyfriend's friends would tease me, my brothers did not tease me because they were taught not to do that to me, and so when people tease me, I didn't know what to do with it, and now somehow I just crave it and really love it, and I think it's because I trust him so much, and I know that he loves me, and I know that he doesn't mean it, that it's okay, but I just find it endlessly hilarious.

Janelle Orion 36:55

So can we dive a little bit deeper? You're saying teasing? So can you give me some examples, or at least, tell me a little bit more, yeah, we

Andrea Enright 37:03

were unloading this artificial Christmas tree out of the box, and we were on his his deck, like, taking it out, right? And it was in pieces, right? And he just said, like, looks, like someone's got some assembling to do, right? Basically, just like, saying that, like it was my job to put it together. And he was gonna go, like, you know, have a smoke or something, right? And I just find these things endlessly hilarious, right? He's just constantly, like, saying, not constantly here and there, just throwing those in. He has a really dry sense of humor, and so do I, and so we're just laughing constantly about that. And I know he doesn't mean it.

Janelle Orion 37:39

So, like, essentially, he helped you assemble the tree. Is what you're saying, Yes, for sure, right? But, but the content, like, he still makes the statement, and the statement, in this way, makes you laugh really hard, yes.

Andrea Enright 37:52

And he also may say, like, oh, like, get back to the kitchen where you belong.

Janelle Orion 37:57

So I what I'm hearing with this, and I want to, like, like, just, like, dig in a little bit more, because there's, I'm going to straw out the word, right? Like, this could be termed, like, misogynistic, right, in some of these phrasing, right? Like, get back to the kitchen kind of thing. But what I'm also hearing is that there's such joy and play there it is. There's not a truth behind the statements, and that you're actually the metric of whether this is working or not is that you're just laughing all the time, and Kevin, I'm imagining, I would love to hear what you think about this is that, like you actually don't believe what you're saying, you're just knowing that she does that gets her really excited and turns around and makes her

Kevin Masten 38:37

laugh, correct? Yes, yes, I would definitely want to go on record that I don't believe what I'm saying. Yeah. I mean, I think it works for us, because we do have, I mean, this is another area where we have, we had discussions about it beforehand. We've got some boundaries and some guardrails. I mean, the teasing goes both ways. It's a little bit different the teasing that Andrea does with me. But, you know, sometimes we'll just sort of like, shut it down for the day. It's like, okay, we've had our fun, but let's, let's dial it back for now. There are areas that are, you know, they're just off limits, right? Like the it's meant to bring us closer. It's not meant to, you know, be passive aggressive or or bring up, you know, bring up things that that we know are gonna gonna be hurtful. So it's in the spirit in which it was designed to

Janelle Orion 39:29

be, I love that I love that this teasing, even in this like taboo way, right, is designed to bring you closer. And it reminds me of one of my favorite books on intimacy, which is Jack Morin's book the erotic mind. And there's like he categorizes in this research project, like four different ways turn on happens, and one of them is getting turned on by like the taboo and by like power dynamics, right? And what I'm so. I'm so, like, thrilled, ultimately, just to hear you guys talk about this, because, like, the permission you are giving each of all of us, including myself, listening, is that, if it brings us joy, right, that gets to be the measurement, especially because the safety is there, right? The trust is there, like, the love is there, and to someone else, like they might be like, What the fuck? But you're not doing this for someone else. You're doing it for yourself, and your own metric is your laughter and your joy and the fact that you're getting coming closer together. And so yes, you know, You're disregarding what society is telling you is correct or not correct. Yes, we're

Andrea Enright 40:37

not usually doing it in public, although we will do it in public, especially front of strangers, but we're not demonstrating this in a big way publicly, because I think it would like there is some nervousness about like, Oh, if, like, I we've toyed with him ordering for me. I'm just like, could you just order for me? It would just be easier, right? But can you imagine if you're a waitress at a restaurant, and you come and the guy orders for him. And I just played this

Janelle Orion 41:03

out with a client that I had where I went to restaurant in Cherry Creek, and I had my collar on, and he I was not to talk to the waiter at all. And so I would just be like, looking at him. So like, the waiter be looking at me, and then I would like, look away. Oh my god. How did that feel? It was so fun. It was so funny. Like, I was like, and then I would forget, then he begged, forgot, I'm like, so weird for me not to answer it. So we just, like, played with it. It was just like a play. It was very playful.

Andrea Enright 41:34

That is so interesting, yeah, and I kind of like it too. Like, I definitely would enjoy not making the decision about what to get. And there's a little part of me that's like, would be afraid that someone might think I was like, there against my will or something. If someone

Janelle Orion 41:51

ordered No, I totally played into it, like I'm being perfect. I highly recommend trying it,

Kevin Masten 41:59

something to talk about on this Saturday's check in. Okay, so

Janelle Orion 42:07

it sounds like you guys get along like a lot of the time, but I would imagine there's things that you disagree with or disagree on. Do you have a repair process for when you disagree?

Andrea Enright 42:17

I do remember telling you Janelle And telling Kevin maybe somewhere around August, after we've been together three months. And I thought, you know, we really haven't had any conflicts yet, and like, this is kind of worrying, because you need to know how to fight, right? And there has to be an issue. If there's not an issue, then is someone not expressing themselves? Is someone acquiescing when they really disagree? I was curious and concerned, but when I brought this up to Kevin, he said, Andrea, we have had conflicts. We've just navigated them so well that they haven't seemed like

Janelle Orion 42:51

a big deal. Mic drop.

Andrea Enright 42:56

I guess it's true. I think I Yeah, go ahead, yeah.

Kevin Masten 43:00

Well, and it happens, it happens in real time. And if it doesn't happen in real time, it happens on Saturday, right? So there's, there just isn't an opportunity for a conflict, a disagreement, topic to not get addressed and uncovered pretty quickly. And I think that you know, for me in the past, that that was a place where, you know, I probably stumbled in relationships, was there just wasn't a, you know, there wasn't a dynamic in place to to bring up something that was, that was a problem in a relationship. And so, you know, if it didn't happen organically, then it just didn't happen. And then over time, those little things build up, and they become big things. And I think that's, you know, that's what we've been able to navigate. Like it's, there isn't anything that just doesn't really get uncovered quickly, and so little things don't have a chance to become a big thing.

Andrea Enright 43:54

Yeah, I think Kevin, something you say often is that I feel safe, right? We've created a safe space, and this is, this feels like the key to everything, right?

Kevin Masten 44:05

Absolutely, yeah, a place where both of you feel comfortable expressing a difference of opinion or a disagreement, yes,

Kevin Masten 44:12

yeah, yeah. I mean the safety and safety and being adept at communicating with each other. I mean, we can, you know, we can talk about anything at this point. So that gives us space and the ability to tease each other and to, you know, sort of dip into areas that might seem a little a little riskier, a little taboo, but since we've got foundation of safety in place, then it becomes easier to explore those areas.

Andrea Enright 44:41

Yeah, and I think something else we didn't mention yet is like that we're just constantly kind of like leaving each other gifts and like sending each other messages and leaving stickies and leaving heart stickers, and just like, if he comes to my house for a few days, then he'll leave them in random places, like you left a box of. Pistachio Jello pudding on the top shelf of my cupboard, because we were talking about that, I didn't find it for like, weeks. And that's something that, like, is a common practice for me in life, that I, you know, do with my daughter and do with my friends. But I think that constantly reminds us of the love and the gratitude, and that's, you know, I still get, I still get just as excited when I find something now as I did in month one.

Janelle Orion 45:27

Yeah. So a question that I have because I noticed Andrea that, you know, you're a poly coach now, and in your last relationship, you're a poly and you and Kevin said you're monogamous. So I'm curious how you've landed on that, and how that feel. Ivy feels good. But like, can you tell more? Tell us more about that,

Andrea Enright 45:44

as we've talked about on the podcast, there is no oh, I'm polyamorous, and I'll always be polyamorous. I'm monogamous, and I'll always be monogamous, but it's a feeling, right? So in this particular container, I feel really devoted to Kevin, and would like us to have a monogamous connection. I don't know that could change right. That could change anytime, right? Maybe change for him. Maybe it'll change for me. But I think I want this to demonstrate to bravehearts that you can just honor wherever you are right at the time. And there is a notion that I think I talked about with Kevin a few weeks ago, and that just came up on one of my poly, polyamorous relating circles that I have on Monday nights, which is that one of my attendees said, yeah. I realized when I had two or three people around that it just kind of felt easier, because then if one of them disappeared, I still had two left, right? And I almost related that to things in my house, right? Well, I mean, I have three hoodies. If I lose one, I still have two right? Like the more you gather, the less you value. And I don't think that's always true. I think polyamorous couples and throuples and any kind of polyamory, the whatever way you want to do it can work out very well. But I do think there can be a dynamic which is created where you're not going super deep on one and then there's something unhealthy that can develop. Does that make sense? Yeah?

Janelle Orion 47:22

Well, it makes it makes sense. And what I'm also you know, because I know you well, knowing is that you know Polly, you've always said, was a catalyst right for your own becoming. And like all the skills that you and Kevin are talking about, you learned because you were Polly right as part of that journey. And so now you're getting to apply those skills that were useful for that context. I mean, this is, I think one of the real gifts of polyamory is that it does require all these skills and communication to do it well. And now you're like, Oh, I've got the skills now I can apply it to monogamy. It doesn't mean that they only apply to Poly. They apply to any kind of relationship. They do.

Andrea Enright 48:01

And it's just so strange that polyamory really was the catalyst for my own self growth and my own looking at myself and looking at relationship tools. For some reason I didn't know about relationship tools before I started entering the world of polyamory. I mean, that's when I learned the relationship tools. That's when I learned emotional release tools. That's when, you know, I learned how to have more healthy conversations. I mean, honestly, the all those tools can be applied to any relationship. It's just that I happen to learn them, you know, in the polyamory arena, yeah,

Janelle Orion 48:37

Kevin, where did you were you? Have you been in a polyamorous relationship? Or how did you come across the tools that you're applying?

Kevin Masten 48:43

Yeah, no, I, I'm not, I would say that I've probably, the last 10 or 15 years, I've been a serial monogamist. So, yeah, just run into into those tools. And, you know, different, different places have been, you know, curious about being a better partner. I've, you know, had a had a therapist, recommend a book or a technique, and it's just one of those things. Over time, I've gathered tools and tried to apply them in my in my life, great.

Janelle Orion 49:15

So what I'm hearing brave hearts is like the tools are the same. Some of us, as Kevin said so eloquently, like we just didn't know that there were relationship tools. We were just told get married and have kids, right? Like, and there it is. But actually, whatever kind of relationship format you're in there, there are tools that work across them all, and these communication tools and different frameworks. Is there anything unconventional that creates intimacy for you, yeah, of course, like for me, yeah, there's a few things. What are you laughing about?

Andrea Enright 49:53

Yeah, so I so in the bedroom, I like to wrestle and tussle and push and pull. And kind of fight, physically fight, and very primal is that your energy primal, so primal, yeah, primal urge. And Kevin is really good at bracing that and allowing me to struggle. And, you know, we both kind of have this ebb and flow of Fight, fight, kick, you know, wrestle, squeeze, and then we can go into soft, right? And then we come out of it, and we go into hard, and then we go into soft. And so, and if one of us needs it to be soft, then we just request that. But I think as as Kevin wrote in the documents when we were going over the questions for this podcast, he said, What is a little bit rare is that we can touch for hours with really no outcome except touch. And so there's definitely some, I would say, pleasurable pain inflicted on both of us on a regular basis.

Janelle Orion 50:52

You might not realize it's brave hearts, but Andrea is, I don't actually know how tall you are, but it doesn't know you're smaller than me, but like, she's pretty petite. You're a very petite woman, and Kevin's quite a large man, right? So that the scent there's, my question is, like, is there a sense of being overpowered, right? Because he's so much bigger than you that it's also, like, such a deep sense of, I don't know, fill in the word, like surrender, or like, being held, or like, there's something for you that is right.

Andrea Enright 51:23

I mean, he's six two, I'm five three, like, and there's just an enormous feeling of being held, being care taken, of being completely wrapped up and bound that feels very good to me. And, like, just, you know, incredibly nurturing. And so, yeah, that is something that really works for us, and we're always exploring it and going down new new roads and then backing out of them, and then trying this, and then trying that. And I think that especially in that arena, it's very critical that I am constantly practicing my own boundaries, because often something goes awry, and I'm like, oh, something's off. And maybe he'll be like, Okay, what did I do? Or what's what's going on? I was like, Oh, it's just, it's like, I didn't hold the boundary, like I knew that it wasn't good for me, but I allowed it to go a little further. I didn't say something. It's not really a big problem. It's just something we have to discuss, and then I have to be aware of, right?

Janelle Orion 52:22

And what I'm hearing with that and Kevin, I'd love for you to weigh in on this is one of the way you can play rough, right? Is knowing that she's got herself right, that she does have her boundary. Because if, if Andrea wasn't strongly in her yes or no, then I would imagine if you feel very unsafe to actually play rough.

Kevin Masten 52:44

Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, it goes back to trust and communication. And, you know, constant conversations about what we like, what we don't like, what worked, what didn't work, what we might have liked this week. But, you know, maybe next week that'll that'll change, and then, yeah, being able to also have those conversations in the moment. Mean, sometimes we, you know, we'll debrief after, afterwards. Maybe debrief is a little too clinical. We'll have a conversation afterwards. But yeah, we'll circle back. If we don't have a hard stop, we'll put together a PowerPoint? No, but I think, yeah, like in the moment, being able to talk about this isn't working right now. Let's change it up, you know, moving back and forth between being very physical and in softness. Like, sometimes that's, you know, it's an explicit ask from one of us. And then a lot of times it's just organically happens, which is, which is interesting, like, that's, you know, I'm still, like, very curious about how, how and where that comes from. That might be some of the the Woo and the magic that we talk about.

Andrea Enright 53:54

Yeah, we think we manifested each other.

Janelle Orion 54:00

It seems like you did. Kevin, is there anything from your end that do you want to elaborate on, regarding, like, unconventional things that create intimacy?

Kevin Masten 54:10

Yeah, you know, Andrea mentioned earlier that we talk about our relationship a lot, and I think that it hasn't been common for me, not at the not at the level that Andrea and I dig into it. And so that's unique. And, you know, I have a deep, a deep appreciation that we that we both can lean into it so hard.

Janelle Orion 54:30

So it sounds like, I think, Andrew, you said he lives about, I don't know, half an hour, 45 minutes away from you, 30 minutes, 30 minutes. And is there? Has there been times when either emotional distance or separation has actually strengthened your bond.

Kevin Masten 54:46

There's been times where, you know, Andrea went back home to visit family a couple times, and so the first time she went back home, I think we probably only been dating, you know, a few weeks. I. Um, and so we, you know, we came together. We had this really intense connection. We were seeing each other quite a bit. And then to go from that to, you know, not really communicating at all for for three or four days or very limited communication by text, was, was, was new, you know, new ground for us. And so we talked about that when, when she got back, and kind of reimagined, like, what does that? What does that need to look like next time if one of us is out of town for a while, so that we, you know, we maintain this connection that we, that we have. And so, you know, again, it's, you know, it's communication. I think it probably came up on a on a Saturday check in and then, and then we adjusted for next time it happened.

Andrea Enright 55:45

Yeah, I think when I was a part he, you know, Kevin said he kind of slipped back into you. Said you slipped back into a mode of, like, just being alone, because you were used to being alone. And so, you know, just setting up, just an agreement that when I go home and I'm gone for like, seven, eight days that I let's see, yeah, he texts in the morning, and I text and I reach out at night, like, and that's just like the the rhythm, and then we can stay connected, whether that's a text or a call, but just not going too long without, without connecting. I mean, right now, we see each other, you know, every two to three days. And I think, you know, there is no normal these days. Like, I don't know if that's maybe a lot for some people, not enough for others, but that seems to work for us.

Janelle Orion 56:31

Okay, it's been so beautiful talking to both of you, and you've mentioned so many, yeah, different resources and skills and permission fields and unconventional ways of being. And I'm curious if you have any concrete resources that you would recommend to brave hearts if they were looking to navigate and design a relationship for themselves that doesn't necessarily follow what they were, what they learned.

Kevin Masten 56:58

One thing that we started doing early on in a relationship was reading the art of receiving and giving, which I think is a recommendation of yours, Janelle, so that that's a good tool has been a good tool for us, especially given the fact that, you know, we're pretty we're pretty tactile. We like to we like to touch a lot. And then there's things like attachment theory and we talked about nonviolent communication, you know, it's, it's tough. Now, that sort of seems like it's, it's all the it's all the hot topics, right? Like, you know, Esther Perel and John Gottman and but it all starts to make sense when it's, you know, when things click into place in a relationship and things are flowing. Then, you know, for me, it was like the realization that, oh, like, there's, you know, these tools do work, right?

Andrea Enright 57:47

I think more and more often, what I end up saying, or what comes up for me, and even when I'm coaching clients, is that after you've been with someone a long time, a really long time, there are grooves and dynamics in that relationship that are just so hard to crawl out of, and that's just time, right? That's not anyone's fault. That's just like over time, you're not changing them. And then they get deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, and so sort of the the beautiful opportunity to start fresh and know exactly what we're going to do going in, you know, and use those tools and be conscious is huge. And so now, when we're together, if there's any kind of discord, it's just it stands up. So it's so obvious, if there's not, like, a genuine connection, right? And we're just like, oh, something's off. We have to talk about this. And of course, we don't have a three year old running around, and in that sense, it's much easier, right? We don't have kids, and we're also, you know, not potentially on the brink of annoying each other because we don't live together. And so it's easier, but it does stand out, instead of like, there just being this, like, undercurrent of tension that I think can happen with a long term relationship.

Kevin Masten 59:09

Yeah, even though there's only, you know, eight or nine months worth of grooves at this point, like we, we've been, you know, very conscious about what those you know, what those look like. So it goes back to what Andrea said earlier, about, like, the conflict and what, you know, why isn't there conflict? And it's like, oh, well, there is. But like, we've created healthy grooves early on. So, you know, we, we might hit a little speed bump here, there, but like, we quickly get back on on track. And, you know, it's created this really consistent ease and flow in our relationship that, you know, that's just, that's just where we land at this point, which is really amazing to me, and you know, so much gratitude for it.

Andrea Enright 59:54

Yeah, I'm just like, so grateful for the love and the ease and the flow that I just, I just. No ease and flow was possible in this way.

Janelle Orion 1:00:02

What, and what I'm hearing is that even though, right, so for someone who's been, you know, married for a long time, in a relationship, the grooves are deep. They've got young kids at home, right? Like, yes, your relationship might feel very aspirational d but there are a lot of people in their 40s and 50s who are starting into a new relationship for the first time that are going to, you know, I feel confident are going to gain some skills and resonance and new permission and ideas from listening to the two of you.

Andrea Enright 1:00:34

Yeah, I hope so. This has been a good exercise for us. Yeah.

Janelle Orion 1:00:39

Thank you so much for sharing your hearts and your wisdom and your joy and your love with all the brave hearts. So it's been my pleasure to be witness

Janelle Orion 1:00:49

to the entire journey of the Taj yay.

Andrea Enright 1:00:52

Thanks for listening, brave hearts. We love you. Thank you.

Janelle Orion 1:01:00

Hey, Bravehearts, looking for permission. Work with us. Andrea offers permission coaching, and Janelle offers erotic wellness sessions. Follow us on Instagram, meet us in real life at permission to be human workshops in Denver. Subscribe to our newsletter. Do all this and more at our website. Permission to be human. Dot live you.