Ep 108: Part 8/12, A Brandi-Carlisle-Loving Jewish Mom on Community, Guilt, Rabbis & the Superbowl: How to Build a Relationship with God Series

In this episode of Permission to Be Human, Andrea Enright and Janelle Orion sit down with dedicated mom, wife and Jewish-born Denverite Tara Zucker for a dear and down-to-earth conversation about modern-day Jewish life and what that means for a spiritual relationship. They touch on how the greater community, the Torah, the structure and the teachings fuels Tara’s sense of belonging., and how ancient traditions and family rituals have helped her navigate a world of conflict and suffering. There’s a nod to Brandi Carlisle, and Dansko clogs ;-) You’ll hear:

-Why her connection to God is less prayer, more practical life

-All about Judaism’s take on the afterlife

-The absence of recruitment in the Jewish faith. No saving required.

-How community, gathering and ritual helps Tara feel held

-Why tuna fish is an important contribution for her particular temple

-How Judaism (and two female rabbis) help Tara relate to the world

Find her online at Tara Forman Zucker on FB and @‌tara.zucker on Instagram

TRANSCRIPT:

Janelle Orion 0:00

Janelle, struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy, AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts. Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth.

Janelle Orion 0:54

If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel less alone along the way we got you

Andrea Enright 1:07

I love that I learned so much about Judaism from interviewing a practicing synagogue going

Andrea Enright 1:15

Jewish mom today. Yes, she and I both grew up on the East Coast. And so I felt like what she was describing was like, like, a lot of the friends that I grew up with, but she was able to explain some of the faith and the practices and the traditions and the way of life in a way that I, you know, to to this day, didn't really understand. And so I feel in this episode, I have, yeah, gained some really big insights into my friends who are Jewish.

Andrea Enright 1:43

I have more respect for the ability of a community to support support an individual, because she spoke so much about tradition, people, the church, sorry, not the church, the temple, the gathering, the traditions, the giving, and these things clearly help her build a strong foundation of a relationship with God.

Janelle Orion 2:03

The other really big aha that came through for me with Tara was understanding how much this lifetime matters to the Jewish person, about this lifetime versus this this lifetime feeding into the next lifetime that, like the afterlife isn't actually a cornerstone or value or pillar of all in the Jewish faith. I had no idea.

Andrea Enright 2:27

Yeah, yeah. I love that. They're so in the now, yes, it's very Buddhist. I love it. Okay, about to get the Jewish perspective, Bravehearts,

Janelle Orion 2:41

yeah, the Jewish reform perspective from a mom from the East Coast who lives in Denver, as she pointed out, it's like a very we all have our own unique perspective, and she is giving her us hers, and we're so grateful for that.

Andrea Enright 2:58

Hi, brave hearts. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea and I'm Janelle, and this is season five, how to build a relationship with God or spirit or the universe or your knowing, or Jesus or whoever it is that you call that greater power. So I'm super excited today to interview my old dear friend, Tara. We met Tara, I looked up like our first meeting in Google Calendar. It's like 2012 Wow. So yeah, that was a long time ago, and I would be totally remiss if I did not credit Mari Cohen with introducing us, because Mari is very big on getting credit where credit is due. She's like, did I get credit for that? I better have gotten credit for that so, and I haven't. I've seen her lately, and I've forgotten to mention that I've chatted with you. So we met that long time ago, met at a coffee shop I remember, and just just kept talking and talking and talking and talking, so we just kind of had an instant connection. And I remember you telling me, actually, one of the most profound things you talked about is you told me about a brandy Carlisle concert that you went to, and how it just brings you to tears. And I was like, Oh, my God, I have to go to a brandy Carlisle.

Tara Zucker 4:18

Yes. Oh, that's hilarious. I love that, yeah,

Andrea Enright 4:21

yeah. That was, like, the debt. I was like, Oh, what is this depth that I'm not experiencing? Also, Janelle, I forgot to tell you that Tara knows very well. Bruce Cabot, oh, oh, wonderful, yeah. So, like, they went to high school together, right?

Tara Zucker 4:38

I know, actually we met here in our 20s through this like random networking group. I actually introduced him to his ex wife.

Janelle Orion 4:50

Didn't know that so many connections happening,

Tara Zucker 4:54

but yeah, he I mean, I talked to him all the time. He's like, my. One of my best friends,

Andrea Enright 5:01

yeah, yeah, yeah. Love Bruce, yes. Okay, shout out to Bruce. Yeah, Bruce. Okay. So we will get started, and Janelle is going to introduce you.

Janelle Orion 5:15

Tara Zucker is a marketing technologist. She's passionate about dance, go clogs, making good food, grocery shopping, pilates, being a mom, and as you've already heard, Brandy Carlisle,

Janelle Orion 5:29

yes, exactly.

Tara Zucker 5:33

Still, still brings me to

Tara Zucker 5:35

tears. Yes, yeah, I love that. That's big stuff, all right. So, speaking of tears and moments, Tara, how do you describe your spiritual or religious

Tara Zucker 5:49

beliefs? Well, I was brought up Jewish, you know, by two parents who were, like, very dedicated to, like, having a Jewish home. So very traditional Reform Judaism, which revolves around, typically, like supporting a local synagogue, being part of, like your local Jewish community, attending synagogue, attending Hebrew school, celebrating the big holidays through the year. I did grow up in a sort of somewhat kosher home as well, so we didn't have any like pork or shellfish in the house. And, I mean, I'd say it's just very traditional, you know, we went to temple, we went to Hebrew school. We my sister and I both had our Bat Mitzvahs. And, you know, the relationship is more around your religious faith, like your Jewish heritage, you know, sharing things with, you know, your community, being a part of something together. And it's, you know, I think it stems from, like, reading the Torah. You know, we read the Torah parts every year. We start over. We read, you know, parts of the Torah together and temple. So, yeah, it's, it's kind of a connection to the people and to your community and to the, you know, the teachings of the Torah, I would say

Andrea Enright 7:22

so from an early age, you were going through these traditions. It sounds like I'm hearing that it was very close to your family, very close to your culture. And so just reflecting on my own growing up and like what Catholicism it was versus like what Judaism was in a in a house, like, thinking, oh, like, so were you told to pray and told to, like, no, no. So there's no prayer.

Tara Zucker 7:50

I mean, we pray, you know? So in temple, there's like, like, self, like, silent prayer. So, like, that's part of a, you know, the service is typically silent prayer. So I think, you know, it's, it's sort of presented, and you can reflect in your own way. So I think, you know, I always like thought about my family and my sister, you know, maybe put some like thoughts towards my parents, or like, if there was, like, something I was trying to get in, you know, accomplish, maybe I would think about that as a kid. So you pray there. I mean, if you celebrate and, like, observe the Sabbath, you say prayers, like, over the wine and the bread and the candles. That's just like, you know, very basic, but you're not brought up like saying, like kneeling on the bedside and saying those prayers. No, okay, it's not a part of it. Yeah. So

Andrea Enright 8:52

there's a lot of group activity, but it also sounds like that you're invited to do some independent reflection as well. Yeah,

Tara Zucker 9:00

there's, you know, when you're old enough to go, you know, when you're when you kind of outgrow, like the children's programs and stuff, and you join the services in the synagogue, like in the sanctuary, there's always like, silent prayer. I mean, nobody really tells you how to do that and what you should do, but it is like there for you, you know, to kind of self reflect, and you know, do with it, what you might, what you may. But there's no real, like, specific instructions. At least in my experience in the Reform Movement,

Janelle Orion 9:37

was there any like conflict that you had was like, Oh, this is the belief system that I'm being raised in. Or were you as you were, you know, young and, you know, growing into your early 20s was this very aligned for you?

Tara Zucker 9:50

Yeah, I mean, I always felt like it, it always feels like comforting to be like in the sanctuary to me, you know, like. With my community, with, you know, people that were sort of brought up in the same way that I was, like, that always felt like a comfort. You know, I never had any feelings like, Oh, this isn't what I believe in. Because it's not a real strong like, you have to do this or you're not going to be, you know, a good person. You know, there's not. And you know, during the High Holidays, which is like this time of year right now, like Jewish New Year, and then Yom Kippur, you know, you're always invited. It's like the Jewish New Year's like reflection, new beginnings. And so it's like, always like, this time to say, like, Okay, well, I'm going to try to be a better person, a better mom, a better do better at my job, or whatever those things are. So you always have that time to kind of reflect. And then Yom Kippur, which is this week, is like repenting for your you know, your sins. And it's like, you know that's sort of your time to reflect. You know, if you kind of feel like you've gone astray or you've done something wrong, it's like, you could, you sort of like, absolved. You know, I'm not sure if that's like, the right word, but you're, you're forgiven and like, it's a time to say, like, to make amends, if you've, you know, you're in conflict with somebody in your life. Like, that's sort of the time of year to do it.

Andrea Enright 11:23

Yeah, it's so it's interesting, because it seems like there's a lot of rituals, a lot of collective community rituals around this, but it seems way less bossy than Catholicism. Yes, yeah.

Tara Zucker 11:38

And I'd say, like, you know, even more. So, I mean, when I think back to what I was brought up in and compared to now, like for reform, Judaism, it's even more accepting, it's even more open, you know? I mean, interfaith marriages are supported, right? So, and it's very uplifting. Like, the services are much more uplifting than what I grew up in. You know, it was much more traditional. But today, like our synagogue is led by two women, you know, two senior rabbis, like the largest synagogue in the whole Rocky Mountain region, which probably wouldn't have been it just wasn't a thing when I was growing up. Just wasn't as supported. So anyway, not to get off track. But it's much more, like, user friendly, for, like, a lack of a better word, like, I feel like a lot of people could come in and, you know, if you don't read Hebrew, if can't follow on, follow along. That's not you know going to change your experience that much, like, it's like you can still get a lot out of it. It's just more like, approachable, much more uplifting than than what I was brought up in even so, do you use the word God? Is that what you would use? I mean, we use it in temple, yeah, for sure, yes, as opposed to something else, yeah, yeah. We say, like, yeah. We say God or Hashem, yes. There's like, a few different words, yes.

Andrea Enright 13:15

Okay, so do you consider your relationship with God different than your relationship with yourself? I think so.

Tara Zucker 13:23

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't, I don't like have, I mean, I still like, when we're in services and we have silent prayer, like I, I do sort of try to connect and sort of send energy, like, you know, to that spirit, God, or whoever it is. So do you think about that and like, ask for things in that, you know, sort of juvenile way I do,

Andrea Enright 13:51

yeah, yeah. We, we've talked about that. It's like, if you just, like, like, give me an A on this test, I'll never ask for anything again. Yes.

Tara Zucker 13:59

Like, I asked for, like, yeah, like, just for my children to be happy, for everyone to be healthy, you know, sort of like, send this sort of energy to my family and kind of go through the list of all the

Tara Zucker 14:11

people, yeah. It sounds like blessings to everyone. Yes, yes. That's good way to put it,

Tara Zucker 14:17

for sure. Yeah. And so Tara, you spoke to your children in that moment, you described your growing up. Does that apply kind of to your life now? Like, do you go to synagogue? Do you have a community synagogue? Do you celebrate the High Holidays? Are you teaching your children?

Tara Zucker 14:32

Like, yeah. I mean, I would say yeah. I'm following the same sort of pattern that my parents started. For sure, yeah, I feel like a strong responsibility to at least, like, raise my children this way. What they do with it when they get to be adults, like, that's, you know, although it would break my heart if they, you know, ran off to a cult or something, or, I don't know, but, I mean, I. I, you know, I, my husband and I both sort of feel this responsibility to, like, raise them with some foundation, you know, some tradition. Yeah, we support a community, you know, a local synagogue. We're part of a Jewish community. We have, you know, strong ties to the Jewish community. I would say, you know, like I said, what they do with it remains to be seen. My daughter's very attached to her, like Jewish identity, I would say. And that's a big part of her, her life, her social life. My son is a little more private, so not sure how that will be, but yeah, we celebrate the holidays. My daughter was supposed to be on a trip to Israel this summer, but got sidelined because of the the bombing in Iran. But she'll probably go back this this coming summer, and she, like, went to the end of her like, education at the synagogue, even farther than I did. She got, like, confirmed, is what we say, sort of when you, you know, complete your education. But my son is a little more private, which, you know, kind of worries me. And I think it's just because of the climate that we live in today, you know, I think that has a big influence on him, and he's less likely to share that, you know, like his friends were like, Oh, you missed school today. Where were you? You know, like they but he won't, he won't tell them why he missed school. Rosh Hashanah, yeah, we're following kind of the same, same path as my parents did, yeah, and my husband's parents too, yeah.

Andrea Enright 16:38

And do you feel like your children take comfort from the Jewish religion and the community in the same way that you did. I

Tara Zucker 16:48

think so. I think my daughter more so she's definitely embraced it like it's it's a huge part of her social life. Her closest friends, just, you know, happened to be Jewish, and she met through, you know, these various youth groups and things in school. Yeah, I think that gives her some comfort and is a big part of her identity. Yeah, I don't know about my son quite yet. We'll see, but I think, you know, they, they both went through their, you know, the bar mitzvah program and studied Hebrew, and, you know, that gave them a sense of accomplishment, something to be proud of. I hope, yeah, hopefully, like a, you know, sort of a template for them, you know, for their own lives. You know, we can, we can help. We'll see how that transpires. We'll

Tara Zucker 17:38

see. And it sounds like, are they both like teenagers. Is that, like, the age range? Yeah, 14 and 17.

Andrea Enright 17:44

I'm curious. Is, is there any way you feel like, within the Jewish container that God, like, guides your life, or you get messages on like, oh, what I'm supposed to do, or your purpose? Or is that just not a relationship that exists?

Tara Zucker 18:00

I don't see it so much as like God necessarily, but more of like our faith. Yeah, I don't see it as like this one single person or being, but more the community. I think that guides us and like the teachings in a, you know, in a broad sense that you know, the Torah gave us, and the stories and things like, you know, those seem to be more like relatable to our lives than this, like one single being.

Andrea Enright 18:37

I think I'm hearing the Torah and the Judaism offers the values that align with your life, yes, and that keeps you on the right path.

Tara Zucker 18:48

Yeah. Values is a good way to put it for

Tara Zucker 18:50

sure. Yeah. What I'm hearing is that, you know, there was the word God, then there was the word faith, and the stories of the Torah and your community, and that they're they're very woven together, but they all have a kind of a separate role. And that, on this podcast, we've been talking a lot about God, about, you know, this higher power in that relationship, and what you're bringing in is, you're like, yeah, that exists. And what really impacts my life more is the relationship and the stories that are coming through the Torah and the community that I'm a part of that share this faith.

Tara Zucker 19:29

Yes, I would so and like the teachings like that have come before us, like the rabbis have come before us. And my, you know, my current rabbis, you know, like, I, you know, they just had their sort of first sermon as, like, co senior rabbis, and like, their messages, like, resonate a lot with me, and sort of, you know, I connect with what they're saying, and kind of help. You know, really helped me kind of frame my feelings about, like, the, you know, Israel and the war in Gaza, and like, how I wrap my brain around all that, which is very complicated, you know, like being, you know, Jewish person with, like, this strong feeling of Israel being like our land that we were given as a place to be and place to, you know, be safe, but also like our concerns with what's happening in Gaza by the Israeli government. So like weighing those two things, like, so I look to them, you know, to kind of help me, you know, understand that. And kind of, and they, they had a really nice message about, like, you know, it's okay to, like, disagree, you know, like, this really big, strong message about, it's okay, like, this is sort of where, you know, the learning comes from. Like, this sort of partnered learning, and, you know, and I think it's like, of course, we're in this society where we're, like, we so easily, like, shut out the person on the other side, right? But like, you know, talking about how it's it's okay to disagree and it's okay to have that discussion. So there's a lot, you know, that I kind of learned from them in that moment that was helpful, you know, for me to sort of make sense of the world. And, yeah, I love that. I just feel like such a I just hear that you have such a support system in this community that is helping you navigate the world right now. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah. I think when growing up, you know, the rabbi seemed like this really high powered being that was, like, untouchable and like, I didn't have a relationship with my rabbi growing up. I mean, you know, but Yeah, crazy enough. Like these, the two women rabbis, like, I know them, like, as people, not just as rabbis, you know, like, partly because we had kids that went through the school and had their Bat Mitzvahs, and, you know, sort of, you build those relationships too, but, but I do know them on, like a social, you know, like my rabbi, one of them is a brandy Carlisle fan, you know, crazy enough, You know, like they're real regular people that are, you know, mothers and wives and, you know, challenged with same things we are. So I think there's a lot that comes from that, you know, because I didn't have that same sort of relationship with them growing up, or with a rabbi growing up, yeah, yeah. Sounds

Andrea Enright 22:38

like just, like a lot of just human interaction, just real, real people to real people. Yes,

Tara Zucker 22:43

yes, I would say so, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea Enright 22:47

And Janelle, but I can't help but think about as she's describing this support, which it seems like includes gathering, ritual and education, which are the pillars of witness, sisterhood,

Janelle Orion 22:58

right? This is true. And Tara, that's the church that I have formed, and is like in the goddess temple where I live is the home of this church, and it's fledgling, but it's those are the pieces that I feel people aren't really needing and missing right now as they're trying to navigate and how to make sense of the world. And what came through was people are really needing gathering, education and ritual to in order to have a sense of belonging.

Tara Zucker 23:27

Yeah, that's interesting, yeah. I mean, when I'm when I'm there, which I mean, you know, to be honest, I'm not at the physical synagogue very often, but when I am there, I feel very much like at home and like, a part of it, yeah? Like, I feel belonging.

Andrea Enright 23:44

I think you've just talked about this, but you know, it sounds like having a relationship with God helps you find peace amidst the suffering in the world, in the way that you navigate, you know the politics, or you know how to feel, or how how to weigh both sides. Yeah. Do you feel like it's a safe, a safe place with which to then look at the world, and can you say more about that?

Tara Zucker 24:09

Yeah, like the community, or being like in the physical place, community? Yeah, yeah. Do I feel safe like I can talk? Yes, I do. You know. So it's like two things, right? So I have, like, friends that belong to the synagogue, but, you know, but obviously I see them outside of that, but it does feel like a safe place where, yeah, I could ask their opinion and ask questions, you know, because I certainly have friends that like, understand Judaism better than I do. You know, they understand like the conflict in the Middle East better than I do. So, yeah, I feel like I can ask them questions and learn from them and kind of grow my.

Tara Zucker 25:00

Understanding. So growing up, I grew up Catholic, and didn't really know anyone Jewish, probably, like any one Jewish person when I was a teenager, and then got to college, and I was like, oh, there are Jewish sororities. Like, I don't, I don't even know what that means. Like, why isn't there a Catholic sorority, right? So just learning more about the Jewish culture and like what that means. And but as I've moved across the world, I remember there's been, I think twice, where my husband and I had run into people and they're like, Oh, you're mot, right? And I'm like, What's mot mean? And like, members of the tribe. And I was like, What does member of the tribe mean? And, yeah, he's talking about being Jewish. And I'm just like, oh, no, we're not Jewish.

Tara Zucker 25:48

They just, I was like, they thought you were for some reason, right?

Andrea Enright 25:52

I mean, one time we were on a scuba diving track in a boat, I think we just, I don't know, we just had the look or something, not sure. But then, wow, it happened a few times when we were in Israel walking around. People just assumed that we spoke Hebrew and so would start. And so that's fine, yeah. But I think I thought about that situation and I thought, Wow, how nice that someone's like, oh, oh, are you in our club? Oh, you're in. Like, that's a lovely feeling,

Tara Zucker 26:20

yes, yes, you're one of one of us. Yes, you're

Janelle Orion 26:25

one of us, right? I'm just, like nobody, you know, that's just not a thing with the religion that I was, that I grew up with, right? So seems like would be a comfort, yeah.

Tara Zucker 26:35

And of course, you know, there's, like, a wide range of Jewish people, and like, you know, of course, we don't all believe in the same things. There's just a huge, wide range, right? So there's also, you know, when I was in Israel, you know, if I'm like seeing, like an orthodox, you know, family, or even in the US, like seeing, I couldn't feel more apart from them and our beliefs, you know what I mean. So there's, like, a very wide range. They have a completely different set of I mean, you know, I guess their values all stem from the same place, but they interpret them quite differently than than I would. So there's, there's both, definitely both sides.

Andrea Enright 27:21

Earlier in this season, we interviewed a freelance rabbi and priestess, and she spoke a little bit about Jewish renewal and how she had adopted that movement, or she how she became part of that movement many years ago. Is that something you're familiar with, or I'm

Tara Zucker 27:42

not, I don't even know what that is. There used to be something called like, Well, I'm sure there is like, reconstruction like, so that was like, very liberal Judaism. And I mean, even like, I feel like my parents were like, would be part of some groups in the past, but it was just very much, like, we don't need a building, we don't need a rabbi. We're gonna, like, form a group of people together and, like, figure this out. You know? I mean, there was, I'm sure there was more to it than that, but I don't know this renewal, yeah, I haven't looked into that, so I don't know what

Janelle Orion 28:19

that is. You can listen to the episode. It's coming out.

Tara Zucker 28:21

There you go. Okay, perfect. I will.

Janelle Orion 28:24

Yeah, I'd be really curious to hear your take on a different perspective.

Tara Zucker 28:28

Yeah, for sure, yeah. I'm not sure. Yeah, I need to learn about that.

Andrea Enright 28:31

So do you think a relationship with Spirit gives you more capacity to directly support the less fortunate in the world?

Janelle Orion 28:39

And I would love to before you say that like have based on a conversation we had with someone else last week, is, how are you defining less fortunate?

Tara Zucker 28:47

I think my connection to Judaism definitely gives me that you know perspective for sure. It supports it. It definitely supports it. My being able to see, you know, where there are needs in the world, because we have this, this term called sadaqa, and you're, you're kind of brought up with that as, like a little kid. You're, you're given like this little box, and you know, you're supposed to put, like, your savings in there, what you want to give to the less fortunate. So it's like this, you're brought up with that very early on. It's sort of part of the Jewish faith. So I think that teaches you early on, and, you know, it's part of the community. We do something called some synagogues, like, participate in this mitzvah day, where you go out and like, you know, build something or clean something up for the world. So we've participated in different things like that. Yeah, we've given to, you know, other communities that are in need. That's definitely built into the to the faith into our community, for sure. Yeah?

Andrea Enright 29:59

So. Again, it just goes back to community, right? It's community driven in the way that Judaism helps you get to the less fortunate,

Tara Zucker 30:06

and to be super literal about it, yeah, like on Yom Kippur, on Thursday, there'll be like, a huge truck at the temple, and we bring food to fill the pantry at the Jewish family, Jewish Family Service pantry. I forgot what it's called, and we're specifically, like, the tuna fish synagogue. So, like, so that they have protein. It's repeated every services. Like, don't forget, we're the tuna fish synagogue. So, like, we have very specific instructions to, you know, support the pantry.

Andrea Enright 30:44

I love how this how your faith and relationship with God intermingles so cohesively with the world, right? It's very applicable to what's going on. Lots of logistics, lots of spreadsheets, lots of planning, lots of organization, like, there's some kind of secure feeling I get from that. I'm like, oh, people are on it. Like, they're they're organizing this,

Tara Zucker 31:05

yes, yes, lots of people are organizing. Yeah, I just have to bring a bag of tuna fish, that's right.

Tara Zucker 31:13

But I love, I mean, like, that's just such a great visual. But also, like, the practicality of like, Oh, here's a protein that comes in a can. It's non perishable, right? It's easy to carry. It's affordable. It can, like, it's individually wrapped, right? I know, you know, you just can't. And so it gets, there's a very, like, practical, real way. It's how it can be helpful on many levels.

Tara Zucker 31:35

Yes, yeah. I think because, you know, so many pantries are probably full of, like, you know, carbs and sugar and whatever else. So, yeah, it's nice to kind of like direct your even though, of course, they'll take whatever we whatever we want to donate. But yeah, if you can bring, like, protein, it's always preferred.

Andrea Enright 31:56

And Tara, is there a way that you would define the less fortunate, or the people who are benefiting from the tuna fish, yeah. How would I define them, yeah, and if anything comes to mind there on how you Yeah, what you what you consider less fortunate in this world?

Tara Zucker 32:14

Yeah, probably not any different than anyone else. But I would say, you know, somebody without a home, somebody that's just migrated from, you know, war torn country, that's like just arrived here to the US, yeah, anything like that.

Andrea Enright 32:34

Do you think that your relationship with spirit, it seems like your relationship with God impacts your other relationships very directly all the time. Is there a particular way that you think it makes you a better mom, a better parent, a better wife?

Tara Zucker 32:52

I can't think of a direct correlation to that, but I think it like enriches our lives, like our family's lives, my children's lives, you know, I think it enriches theirs, and it just brings, like a sense of tradition. You know, I think my children know that this, you know, because I've reminded them, you know, many times, like when they were studying for their Bat Mitzvah or the bar mitzvah, you know, like, Hey, by the way, you know, I did. I when I went to Hebrew school, I went like, three days a week, and you're going like once a week, and sometimes it's on Zoom, so you better just suck it up and do it, you know. So I think that, like, like, it enriches their lives, knowing that they are following in our footsteps, you know, they're doing what my husband and I both like. We didn't. We're not signing them up for anything. We didn't sign up for ourselves that we didn't go through ourselves. And we can relate to, you know, and we can support them in that because they, you know, because we've been through it before. Yeah? So in that sense, I would say tradition. Mostly, yeah,

Andrea Enright 34:08

sounds like you've set up a very secure foundation for them, which probably gives them a lot of comfort and grounding. I

Tara Zucker 34:14

hope so. Yeah, I think so amazing.

Janelle Orion 34:18

Yeah. How would you suggest that someone find their deepest belief, spiritual path, relationship with God?

Tara Zucker 34:26

Yeah, I did think about this one, that one's this one sort of stuck with me only because I think with Judaism, it's one of those things where it you know, we don't outward, outwardly recruit, right? We don't like our proselytize. I think that's the word, you know. So I never think of it in those things like, Oh, if you were to, like, join the Jewish faith or the Jewish community, here are the things you would benefit, or how you know, this is how this would enrich. Life you would benefit, you know, I just never think of it that way, because it's like, you do you, you know, you're part of your I do me because this is all I ever knew. It's all I know, you know. So it's a tricky, it's like, a tricky question, because I don't, I would say, like, Well, you're welcome to join me, you know, and like, experience what I experienced to see if that's like, if you feel a connection. But I don't, I feel like I don't have the right kind of advice or guidance to, like, send someone out in the world to figure that out on their own.

Janelle Orion 35:38

I was also raised Catholic by and my parents were former priests and nun who were actually missionaries who were out in the world, prophesizing. And so I'm curious how people, how does the Jewish faith keep growing? Like, can like? I know some people who like, married someone who's Jewish, and so then they became Jewish. But I also know someone who married someone who married someone Jewish didn't, you know, didn't do anything more. And so can you just elaborate a little bit more on how people do come into the Jewish face? Is it? I mean, because, primarily, they're born into it, because the tradition is so strong. But Can someone convert on their own?

Tara Zucker 36:18

Absolutely, yeah, in they are what welcomed with open arms, and they're almost like, put up on a certain sex. They're almost like, revered even more than someone that was like, born into the faith. They're like classes. You know, I don't, I don't know specifically, but I'm, I believe there are classes and there's a process, like at the temple, where, you know, where couples go through these together that is very well supported by, like the clergy. But you know, it doesn't always come from an interfaith marriage, like some people just, you know, stumble it on their own. As an individual, actually, one of the rabbis, I think spoke about, there are, like, a lot of times they're, they're spoken about during services. You know, they're pointing out is like somebody that joined our faith, and this person, and this is how she felt, or he, this is what she says about the community. They're, they're often like some of the most active members. So that's how it happens. Though there's no, like, active recruitment.

Andrea Enright 37:27

Yeah, the right word. And actually, yeah, I love your answer, of like, just you, do you? I mean, I just hear so much support, respect, acceptance in those words, yeah, it sounds like there's, you feel there's no reason for me to try to push what I'm doing on anyone else. Like, however your path takes, the shape works for you, right?

Tara Zucker 37:51

Because there's no in Judaism, there's no, like, if you don't do this, bad things are going to happen to you. There's no There's definitely a lot of Jewish guilt, but no threats, right?

Janelle Orion 38:07

Quote, that's totally, that is a mic drop moment,

Tara Zucker 38:11

yes, so I don't feel like I'd be saving anybody from anything, because I don't, I don't even know what I yeah, there's no saving, yeah, it's just sort

Janelle Orion 38:23

of a way of life. There's no saving in the Jewish culture. It's just a way of life.

Tara Zucker 38:29

Yeah, we don't really have this sort of, you know, I mean, to get really literal, we don't have this heaven in hell mentality. We don't have, like, do good now so that you're like, you get into the special place we don't have, we don't really have that.

Janelle Orion 38:45

I'm curious where the guilt comes in. So, like, what is the guilt about?

Tara Zucker 38:49

Oh, my God, so many things

Janelle Orion 38:53

can't we not bringing, not bringing tuna, right?

Tara Zucker 38:57

Yeah. Maybe not, yeah, maybe not breach, not below. Like, maybe not belonging, not going to services, not going to temple, is particularly on Yom Kippur. Rosh Hashanah, right. That's part of it.

Janelle Orion 39:10

But so if the guilt of that is like, so if you don't go on Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, are you a bad Jew? And like, what does that mean to be a bad Jew? And like, why is going on those days feel significant? I'm just like, yeah, kind of trying to dig into

Tara Zucker 39:23

the I know, you know, everybody would give you a different answer on this, but it is a day that you're not supposed to work. You know what? I mean, you're not supposed to spend money, you're not supposed to, you know, there's so many things so like, it's a day of reflection and observance. So, yeah, it's like, if you don't observe, like, people will say, like, I'm a bad Jew. I didn't go to synagogue. You know, it's like, just like, and it's in in jest, but it is sort of like, that's what we were brought up with. Like, it's like, the, you know, rabbis have said this a million times, but it's kind of like the Super Bowl of like. The Jews. You know what? I mean? Like, everyone comes like, like, the doors open, and everyone comes from every corner of the world, because it's like, where you're supposed to be, you know, because you're not supposed to work, you're supposed to reflect, and you're supposed to repent for your sin. So it's like, this sort of like, yeah, so there's that, there's like, guilt for not marrying Jewish, not keeping kosher, not celebrating the Sabbath, not going to Hebrew school, not raising Jewish children, so many things.

Andrea Enright 40:32

So I think you're saying there's guilt about not contributing and not being committed. Yeah,

Tara Zucker 40:39

because our ancestors, like before us, like, gave up so much, you know, they died because they were Jewish. Like you were given this life, and, you know, you came from this tradition. So you need to, you know, live out your Jewish life because they didn't get to

Andrea Enright 40:59

that's a reminder to be grateful. Yeah? Gratitude,

Tara Zucker 41:02

beautiful, yeah. What

Janelle Orion 41:04

I'm hearing is that, yeah, like, the guilt is about this lifetime though, right? It's, it's very in the present.

Tara Zucker 41:10

Yes, definitely, we don't really, I mean, I'm sure there's something like that rabbis talk about a bazillion times, but, yeah, we don't really talk about this afterlife concept in that, in, like, the traditional way it's right now, do you

Janelle Orion 41:28

believe in an afterlife or, or what's the is there? Is there a Jewish in general? Like, if we can say consensus,

Tara Zucker 41:38

I like to think about maybe some kind of like reincarnation, like, maybe come back to life. Is this different being? I would like to believe there is an afterlife, but I don't. I don't think I believe in one myself. Yeah, okay,

Janelle Orion 41:51

and the Jewish faith does not. It's not, like, tied to that. So the no one so like, someone completely be Jewish and believe in reincarnation. Someone can be Jewish and not believe in reincarnation. Yes, it's not tied to the faith.

Tara Zucker 42:03

Yeah. I mean, I'm and I'm sure there's other theories out there too. Yeah, that's the only one I've heard, like, sort of referenced or spoken about. Is this, like, sort of idea of reincarnation? Yeah, I don't remember where I heard it, but yes,

Janelle Orion 42:19

okay, I learned something new right there in that one. Yeah, thank you so much.

Andrea Enright 42:25

Yeah, I really feel like I just got the I just felt the flow of like, oh, I mean, obviously I've known plenty of Jewish people in my life by now and have been around this. My and my daughter also learned so much about Judaism at Waldorf because they do a whole year, which is why they have Shabbat every Friday, and we build, they build the sukkah, yes, yes, coming, yes, yeah. And so I learned she knows more about it than I do. dI think I turned this little corner in this conversation of being like, oh yeah, this the gathering and the ritual in the community, like just bring so much support to an individual, and that feels nice. I mean, I'm not feeling it, but it sounds like it would be nice to feel that held.

Tara Zucker 43:12

Yeah, yeah. Thank

Janelle Orion 43:15

you so much. Thanks for being here

Tara Zucker 43:17

for sure. Thanks for inviting me.

Janelle Orion 43:21

Is there anything else that you would like to share with a rave hearts about your experience or and if not that, that's totally fine, but just so grateful that you're willing to talk about this topic, because is that an opportunity for us to all learn about each other? Yeah,

Tara Zucker 43:36

no. I mean only that, like, this is just one person's viewpoint. Of course, like there's many different views on the matter, and probably different perspectives on like being Jewish and the Jewish community, but it's very much like a Jewish Reform Jewish, you know, mother's opinion, who grew up on the East Coast, who now lives in Denver, very specific, you know, perspective, but yeah, hopefully it was interesting.

Andrea Enright 44:05

Yeah, yeah. I think your perspective matters. So thank you so much for offering that to our brave hearts. Sure. All right, thank you, brave hearts for listening, and we'll see you next time. Bye. We love you. We love you.

Janelle Orion 44:26

Hey, Bravehearts, looking for permission. Work with us. Andrea offers permission coaching, and Janelle offers erotic wellness sessions. Follow us on Instagram, meet us in real life at permission to be human workshops in Denver. Subscribe to our newsletter. Do all this and more at our website. Permission to be human. Dot live you.